Mundine KO's Critics

[RandFan]

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You really are ignorant of the Muslim religion. Read this link first, then take a good, long look around this site. If nothing else, at least click on 'misconceptions'. Until you learn a bit about Islam, I'm not going to reply to any more of your ignorant statements. I simply don't have the time to rebut each and every one of your misconceptions- there seem to be just too many of them.

Ok, now your “links”.

Take the verse which is on the lips of almost every Imam of a masjid these days, "And never will the Jews and the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion." (2:120)

This verse is wrongly understood to apply to every individual Jew and every individual Christian. However, we know from the Qur'an itself and from our knowledge of individual Jews and Christians that this is not the case. The Qur'an itself tells us that some Christian embrace Islam, "And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth." (5:83)

My problem with this type of rhetoric is that it views right and wrong through a filter called “The Qur’an” and the philosophy of Muslims. This view presupposes that IT is correct and the other philosophies are wrong.

The great Mahatma Gandhi realized that such assumptions could only lead to violence and separation of people.

ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS

Ghandi
By religion, I do not mean formal religion, or customary religion, but that religion which underlies all religions, which brings us face to face with our Maker. (MM, 85)

Let me explain what I mean by religion. It is not the Hindu religion which I certainly prize above all other religions, but the religion which transcends Hinduism, which changes one's very nature, which binds one indissolubly to the truth within and which ever purifies. It is the permanent element in human nature which counts no cost too great in order to find full expression and which leaves the soul utterly restless until it has found itself, known its Maker and appreciated the true correspondence between the Maker and itself. (SB, 223)

Gandhi realized that we are above all humans and that human relations are far more important than religion.

The Qur'an says about the Jews and the Christians that they corrupted their scripture: "Among the Jews are those who distort words from their (proper) places (i.e., usages)." (4:46).

It is clear from the verse itself that this does not apply to all Jews. How about the generations of Jews and Christians who came after the corruption had been made, and who believed that what they had in their hands was the true Book that Allah revealed? Ibn Taimyyah says that they cannot be considered as corrupters.

So, according to this not all Christians and Jews are "corrupters". Why makes this distinction at all? Why not just point out that Jews and Christians are humans and should be judged on an individual basis? Why bring beliefs into the discussion at all? So what if Christians believe in corrupted scriptures? And who are you to decide that someone else’s scripture is corrupt?

What about the Christians belief that Jesus is the Son of Allah? Even this has to be qualified by the empirical fact, which might come as a surprise to people in the Muslim world that there are thousands of Christians in America who do not believe that Jesus is the son of Allah!

I am relating all this in order to emphasize the point that we should deal with people according to what we know about them. We should not try to impose upon them a belief, which they deny. How should I deal with someone who claims to be a Christian, but who tells me that he does not believe that Jesus is the Son of Allah? Should I tell him that so long as he or she is a Christian then they must believe that Jesus is the son of Allah because the Qur'an says so?

Who cares if Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God? Don't get me wrong. I truly understand the sentiment being given here. It however misses the more important point that person’s beliefs are ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.

People should be free to believe what ever they want and pay no attention to what someone else believes.

What we have just said about beliefs applies also to standpoints on issues. Because people in the West are free-as individuals and groups to express their opinions and positions on issues, you find so many differences among them. It is therefore not only unfair, but also detrimental to our cause to treat them as if they were a monolith.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Put down the Qur'an and deal with me as a person and not a "Jew", "Christian" or "infidel."

A cautionary remark is in order before we conclude. To treat people fairly and nicely is not the same thing as compromising the truth. We must be firm in accepting and defending the truth that Allah revealed to his Prophet, while at the same time being tolerant with those who reject it so long as they do not resort to any acts of aggression against us. "And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them." (29:46).

Tolerance to “those who reject it?” It sounds like “they” have done something wrong. Like “they” robbed a liquor store but we must be tolerant of them. Sorry but this sounds good but is very wrong.

It is this rhetoric that is most destructive. It is not enough to advocate tolerance. It is vitally important to embrace the idea that all humans are equal regardless of religious belief. That which bonds us as human brothers is far more important than any so-called “truth”.

I don’t know if it is possible to have both peace and religion. I do know that as long as there are attitudes like this one (we must be tolerant with those who reject the truth) there simply can be no peace.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

It however misses the more important point that person’s beliefs are ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.

You'd think so, wouldn't you. Who, then, do you think said this:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Once you've worked out who said that, you'll realise that Muslims aren't the only ones who 'barely' tolerate other religions. Religion is rife through just about every nation on Earth, including yours, and every religion is the 'one true' religion. The fact is, though, Muslims don't exclude other religions, and they recognise that other religions have the right to exist. Where does it say in the New Testament that other religions have the right to exist?

 

[RandFan]

You'd think so, wouldn't you. Who, then, do you think said this:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Once you've worked out who said that, you'll realise that Muslims aren't the only ones who 'barely' tolerate other religions. Religion is rife through just about every nation on Earth, including yours, and every religion is the 'one true' religion. The fact is, though, Muslims don't exclude other religions, and they recognise that other religions have the right to exist. Where does it say in the New Testament that other religions have the right to exist?

No argument. I don't think it is right for Bush or anyone to make such statements.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

So, in the spirit of moving forward in this argument, can you accept that it is common practice for leaders of countries to invoke religion to rally the masses, but it does not neccessarily follow that the masses are blinded by that religion? Otherwise, you would have to accept that Bush can rally the Americans to his cause at any time with a thump of the Bible.

Assuming that you can agree to this, we can move on. Muslims aren't mindless religious robots. So why are they ticked off at America?

 

[RandFan]

So, in the spirit of moving forward in this argument, can you accept that it is common practice for leaders of countries to invoke religion to rally the masses, but it does not necessarily follow that the masses are blinded by that religion? Otherwise, you would have to accept that Bush can rally the Americans to his cause at any time with a thump of the Bible.

Non Sequitur.

1.) America is not a religious state.

2.) There is an active 2 party system in the United States. One is traditionally anti-war. George Bush is currently being denounced by Democratic presidential candidates.

3.) There are MANY outlets and sources of news.

4.)There are many voices of opposition that contribute to a free flow of ideas.

5.) The courts routinely vote in favor of separation of church and state.

6.) George Bush's statement aside, there is little religious rhetoric. A few statements can hardly be compared to calls of jihad.

7.) Many vocal and politically powerful churches are against the war. The Catholic church spoke out against the war. Many nuns and priests marched against the war.

There is very, very little comparison between America and many if not most Muslim Countries.

Just because George Bush makes an idiotic statement does not mean that he IS using the bible to rally Americans to his cause.

On the other hand, many Muslim countries lack the freedoms that we enjoy. There is historic precedent that countries without lots of voices and lots of sources for news are more likely to believe the propaganda of their leaders. North Korea, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Communist China, etc., etc.

Assuming that you can agree to this, we can move on. Muslims aren't mindless religious robots.

I would not call Muslims mindless robots but it is difficult to make decisions when there is limited sources of information. I believe that many Muslims are indoctrinated.

So why are they ticked off at America?

Complex Problem. There are many factors that contribute to the feelings of Muslims. I am quite convinced that much of the ill will is directly caused by the propaganda of Clerics and leaders. Calling us the "great Satan" doesn't help. Being a nation made up of Christians (wrong religion) doesn't help.

I will concede that much ill will comes from many of mistakes that we make. Unfortunately the mistakes are highlighted while the good (Somalia, Kosovo) are not or made out to be nefarious.