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Multiple Personality Disorder/DID

shalomsteph

Critical Thinker
shalomsteph
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
363
I never jumped on the MPD/DID/Repressed Memory/Satanic Ritual Abuse bandwagon. I have a degree in social work, so I am not an uneducated observer. I researched quite a bit and came to the conclusion based on the hard science of how memory works. I know that MPD was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder and IS listed in the DSM as a legitimate psychiatric disorder. So yes, I know people more well educated and experienced than I am found enough evidence to list it. (But, homosexuality ALSO used to be listed as a disorder that could be treated)

All of that being said, here is my dilemma. A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it. She knows that I think its bunk, and we agree to disagree.

Well, she called me a few weeks ago to ask me a question. She said that a patient of hers with diagnosed MPD was raped, and there was a man being held in county lock up for raping her. The man swears up and down that the sex was consentual. Well, when my friend asked more questions, it turns out that "one of the personalities consented, but one was raped." I was appalled..here is a guy in jail for a one night stand!

Anyway, I advised her to let the police know the "new evidence", so the man could at least have bond lowered, if not the charges dropped altogether. She said she wanted to do that, but she was afraid that she would cause discrimination for all rape victims with a mental illnesses. I told her that wasn't her concern...her concern was about a man sitting in jail right now.

Well, to make a long story shorter, she did reveal that information and the man was released and charges were dropped. But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.

I always figured MPD was just something that misguided mental health professionals used as a diagnosis, or corrupt ones used to make money. I never thought about the "ripple effect" of giving a very ill person a way to get out of being responsibility. So what does everyone here think?
 
I originally clicked on this because you had multiple threads (well, one other).... but I deleted the other one. But I find this intriguing and never really read up on it before.

I found this - where the final paragraph reads:
Charcot removed his patients from the special wards when he realised what he had been inventing. We can do the same. These patients should be treated by the same methods Charcot used--isolation and countersuggestion. Close the dissociation services and disperse the patients to general psychiatric units. Ignore the alters. Stop talking to them, taking notes on them, and discussing them in staff conferences. Pay attention to real present problems and conflicts rather than fantasy. If these simple, familiar rules are followed, multiple personalities will soon wither away and psychotherapy can begin.

and this on Skeptic's Dictionary:
"The experts have created both the disease and the cure. This does not mean that MPD does not exist, but that its origin and development are often, if not most often, explicable without the model of separate but permeable ego-states or "alters" arising out of the ashes of a destroyed "original self." .....
....It is possible, of course, that some cases of MPD emerge spontaneously without input from the MPD community, while other cases--perhaps most cases--of MPD have been created by therapists with the cooperation of their patients who have been influenced by authors and film makers. In either case, the suffering of the person with MPD is equally pitiable and deserving of our understanding, not derision."

In posting these links and these snippets, however, I don't want to in any way detract from the crime of rape and how serious I consider it to be. But I have expounded my views on the topic of how rape is viewed on another forum (MuNu, here) and would probably let that stand as a good overview of my opinions if people wanted to know about that. From the information you have given here... I'd be tempted to see what the law said in general about mental illnesses and rape and how that influenced the case?
 
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

How does one prove consent?

Usually, with a violent rape, there are certain physical datum that can be used. Tearing of the vaginal area, for one, and possible DNA evidence for another, not to mention bruises, abrasions, and the usual knocking around that happens beforehand.

But on a date rape....it's much harder to tell, though the presence of intoxicants can be a tell-tale. There can also be some 'forced' action going on, which results in bruising and vaginal tearing as well. Then again, this can also happen during rough consentual sex.

If a woman consents, then later feels guilty and decides she didn't...well, is that rape?

As for a mentally ill, did this woman KNOW she was MPD? Was she checked out beforehand by a professional? It seems to me that even a 'mild' case would tend to render you non-functional in society. She shouldn't have been let out of doors on her own.

Besides, it was my understanding that the personalities switched, one then the other...not two at once.

I have every sympathy for a woman who has been raped. And none at all for her attacker(s). But something doesn't smell right, here.
 
But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.
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It has happened. Can be quite common in dissociatives. And the legal proffession is quite aware of it. If fact, I know it is given to criminal law students as an excersize... with variations: My alternate personality committed the murder (is this a defence?)
A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it.
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This sort of thing is common - I take it the physician is an MD with no psychiatric training?

Qite a lot of the pseudo and plain junk science in health is circulated by MDs.
 
Advice I received many years ago as a young Airman:
"Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself."

Robert
 
How does one prove consent?
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Usually it is up to the accuser to prove that consent was absent. As you point out, this is a delicate and problematical process, one that is well covered in legal literature. In many cases it is down to the percieved character of the protagonists ... however, cases with little physical evidence seldom see trial.

The best advise for those considering adding sex to a date is to be honest from the word go. I've found a good first date comment is "I feel I should tell you that I never have sex on the first date." Nicely disarming and remarkably informative. Now the sex is out of the way - we can start talking sensibly. Of course, I could be pursuaded...

It seems to me that even a 'mild' case would tend to render you non-functional in society.
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Not at all. It is possible to be quite extreemly dissociative and still function quite well. There is a face for each situation.

Note: we are all mildly dissociative.
 
Well, if you mean that we all wear masks, then I would agree.

But if you really have another person living inside you, how could you be responsible for ANYTHING you do or say...or that is even done to you?

You would be unable to engage in any social contract of any kind, let alone a legal contract.
 
clarsct said:
Well, if you mean that we all wear masks, then I would agree.

But if you really have another person living inside you, how could you be responsible for ANYTHING you do or say...or that is even done to you?

You would be unable to engage in any social contract of any kind, let alone a legal contract.
Click to expand...

Could a person be convinced into thinking they're insane?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Milligan
http://www.danielkeyesauthor.com/milligan.html

Billy Milligan's case was a bit different: the MPD'ed individual was the rapist, but only one of the 24 known personalities (adding insult to the injury received by the victims, the rapist personality was a lesbian woman); how can one imprison 23 innocent personalities for the actions of one?

Milligan was acquitted, but this is not the victory that it may seem. He was institutionalized in a system that compares (some say poorly) to the penitentiary system.

The Minds of Billy Milligan is a fascinating book, no matter what your opinion of the reality of the condition.
 
I recognise the 'Flowers for Algernon' writer.... is it the same Keyes?

Ah, edit - yes it is. Interesting.
 
shalomsteph said:
I never jumped on the MPD/DID/Repressed Memory/Satanic Ritual Abuse bandwagon. I have a degree in social work, so I am not an uneducated observer. I researched quite a bit and came to the conclusion based on the hard science of how memory works. I know that MPD was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder and IS listed in the DSM as a legitimate psychiatric disorder. So yes, I know people more well educated and experienced than I am found enough evidence to list it. (But, homosexuality ALSO used to be listed as a disorder that could be treated)

All of that being said, here is my dilemma. A friend of mine, a physician, believes that this exists and has some patients with it. She knows that I think its bunk, and we agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

If you look carefully in the DSM-IV (I don't have the revised edition), it stops short of claiming that multiple personalities actually exist.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I taught English in a psychiatric hospital, I was married to a psychiatric nurse, and I've talked with a lot of psychiatrists, often over some single-malt scotch. The majority consensus seems to be 1) multiple personalities really don't exist, and 2) the diagnosis, when it has been given, really describes one extreme manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder.

Well, to make a long story shorter, she did reveal that information and the man was released and charges were dropped. But I am wondering now if this has happened before, to other men? I can't quite believe this is an isolated incident, but I also haven't been able to find anything.
Click to expand...

Haven't you checked Google? http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/forensic.html was the first link on the list. Note that MPD has also been used in defense.

I haven't been able to find a reference to a case I remember from a couple of decades ago, where a man was charged for having sex with an adult woman's "underage personality." It was a fairly notorious case and provided meat for writers of courtroom drama teleplays for quite a while.

I always figured MPD was just something that misguided mental health professionals used as a diagnosis, or corrupt ones used to make money. I never thought about the "ripple effect" of giving a very ill person a way to get out of being responsibility. So what does everyone here think?
Click to expand...

Well, of course, going for one-night stands is common Borderline behavior, but a lot of people who aren't borderlines go for one-night stands. Reporting that as rape, on the other hand, is textbook; it's right up there with self-inflicted injuries and surgery addiction. Borderlines manipulate and hurt others by exhibiting themselves as sufferers. They're exceptionally good at suckering people.
 
Cultural note: IIRC, diagnoses of Dissociative Identity Disorder are seen almost exclusively in western nations.
 
clarsct: I didn't say everyone had MPD - remember, this is bogus. I said everyone dissociates. A healthy level of dssociation can help you keep a cool head when everyone else is losing theirs. (Of course, this isn't DID either. Remember, it's a healthy responce.) Have you ever observed the personality shifts your freinds go through as they enter new situations?

It's a bit like everyone is paranoid - that's the little voice that makes you check you have your car keys/purse/wallet - that you havn't left the gas on and so on. Is that person really looking at me in a funny way?

Ah! But it just occurs to me: you are part of the conspiracy! Hah! I'm on to you now - you don't fool me! <gibber>

ahem: Simon is suffering a slight setback. I will be in charge of his body for a while. You may call me Nomis. Thank you.

Kiless: You can pursuade "people" of anything given sufficient motivation :)

Bear in mind that much therapy involves convincing the patient they need treatment.
 
Which is what I took the comment to mean.

Wearing a mask..IE, changing your output in regards to the environs you find yourself in. If I found myself in a group of militant, gun toting Fundamentalists, I doubt I would proclaim my atheism or go about teaching them how wrong they are.

We wear different masks around different people. We act differently around our parents than we do around our S/O.

I happen to work in an Emergency-related field actually. Some folks can keep their heads together, and some can't. And sometimes it is surprising who is who. I haven't yet been able to predict it.

And for the record, I am VERY paranoid. I constantly double and sometimes triple check myself. But, then again, this is useful when you're cleaning up a 800 gallon Sulfuric Acid spill.....
 
Diagnostic criteria for 300.14 Dissociative Identity Disorder

A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self).

B. At least two of these identities or personality states recurrently take control of the person's behavior.

C. Inability to recall important personal information that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness.

D. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., blackouts or chaotic behavior during Alcohol Intoxication) or a general medical condition (e.g., complex partial seizures). Note: In children, the symptoms are not attributable to imaginary playmates or other fantasy play.

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Copyright 2000 American Psychiatric Association


That isn't really very vague or cautionary. It appears as though someone believes it is a legitimate dx. I don't. I wasn't really seeing that as negotiable. Some poeple believe Sylvia really talks to dead people and swear it is true, or that aliens really did land in Area 51. I don't. I class DID in the same category...yes, some really smart people believe it and want to legitimize it, despite the science.

I do agree that Borderline Personality Disorder does exist, and it is very destructive. Worked with them, got the shirt.
 
clarsct: a good summary.
Sure - though I was talking about a bit more dissociative that consciously playing a role. That's acting.

Personally I can get confused opening a door, and I'm terrified about blood. But see me at a car accident and I'm a different person. Logic and cold. When I'm doing it I don't know I'm doing it - I become aware of fine details but other people become something of a blur requiring effort to relate to. Fortunately they seem to just do as they're told.

But maybe not all that extreme.

Most people seem to be able to dissociate themselves from events around us. I suspect we do this when we see disaster news on TV too.

I think a disociative disorder is another case where a tame process gets out of hand.

Confrounted with a stress situation, we may have found we can sort of retreat a bit inside and the situation goes away - probably because we're not responding. When it gets very stressful, well maybe we need to go a little deeper. but if we don't learn another approach, we may get stuck in that state: schitzophrenia (amday - spelling).

Similarily with the paranoia - I had a father in law who had senile demetia. It was actually quite neet: all the tame paranoias would come out: where is the car (we didn't drive) did we sign the leave book (yes, we always do) every 10 mins or so unless something else occupied attention. But it's all stuff we do every day. My personal favorite was "I hope I ordered the salmon, it's my favorite." I liked this - imagine, you can order your favorite dish, and then forget about it. A restaurant meal becomes a pleasant surprise as the staff seem to just guess your every wish!

Well, it's a POV.
 
shalomsteph said:
Diagnostic criteria for 300.14 Dissociative Identity Disorder

A. The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self).
Click to expand...

Nota bene: personality states, not personalities.
 
luchog said:
That's because elsewhere, it's usually seen as demon/spirit posession.
Click to expand...
...I hope you're not serious. You do know there are civilized nations on other continents, right?

This would be begging the question anyway.
 
Alas, psychiatry is nothing but a social construction. Actual illnesses are shunted over to neurology.
 
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