Mugabe says opposition will never govern in his lifetime

[geni]

With all the rebel groups that have formed in Africa, I do not understand why there is no insurgency in Zimbabwe. One would think there would be no shortage of recruits. The whites must all hate him, however many are left, along with large segments of the black population.

No where for one to come from. The CIA won't back it. The zimbabwe army supports him and non of the surrounding countiries are going to be to happy about you putting a force together on their turf. Africa has been stabliseing of late.

 

[shemp]

I suspect that long before you get there, the economy reverts to a barter economy. Can you imagine trying to buy a quart of milk? The cashier tells you it's $2.79, and by the time you've fished out your wallet and gotten the money out, the price is $2.99. And while you're scrounging up the additional 20 cents, the price has gone up to $3.19, and while you're digging out that additional 20 cents...

Eventually you reach into your pocket and instead of money, you pull out a revolver.

A revolver for a quart of milk? Doesn't seem like a fair exchange. And I bet by the time you pull it out, the cost is two revolvers.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Why all the efforts for freedom and democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst this kind of thing is going on in Zimbabwe?

No oil?

 

[volatile]

No oil?

I'm not that cynical.

 

[gdnp]

I would blame it more on the racial situation than the lack of oil. Right now both Mugabe and his opposition are the head of predominantly black factions. If the west steps in, it looks like the white colonial oppressors are attempting to regain control.

 

[BPSCG]

If the west steps in, it looks like the white colonial oppressors are attempting to regain control.

Yes, we can't allow that. Mustn't give race-baiters the slightest pretext to voice phony complaints about colonialism. Better to let a once fairly prosperous country slide into financial catastrophe and brutal despotism while its black neighbors all look the other way.

 

[gdnp]

One could take a different cynical tack and state that we don't intervene in Zimbabwe because we are spread so thin in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can't spare the troops.

Part of my argument with Iraq was that the US went in without a true international consensus. Unfortunately, the same situation exists in Zimbabwe. We should be working on developing such a consensus. Unilateral action without one would be a disaster.

 

[BPSCG]

Part of my argument with Iraq was that the US went in without a true international consensus.

How many countries do you need before you can call it "a true international consensus?" Four other countries joined the U.S. in the invasion, 33 supplied troops to support the occupation after the invasion was complete, and six that had no military provided other support.

 

[gdnp]

How many countries do you need before you can call it "a true international consensus?" Four other countries joined the U.S. in the invasion, 33 supplied troops to support the occupation after the invasion was complete, and six that had no military provided other support.

Well, going in under UN auspices like in the first gulf war would be one way...

 

[Beerina]

Mugabe says opposition will never govern in his lifetime

Reminds me of that scene in one of the newer Bond films, post-Roger Moore. The $8 billion drug lord in South America says to some recalcitrant generalissimo, "Remember, you are only 'El Presidente For Life'."

 

[Bob Blaylock]

This whole situation is just horrific, and the silence of the West is a disgrace. It strikes me that these are the types of situations that concerted international efforts can resolve, if the will was there.

Why all the efforts for freedom and democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst this kind of thing is going on in Zimbabwe?

We cannot solve all the problems of every nation on Earth, and it's not always our business even to try. Zimbabwe is a sovereign nation, and violating the sovereignty of another nation is never something to be done lightly.

Iraq and Afghanistan were harboring terrorist groups responsible for attacking our own nation, and murdering thousands of people on our soil. This is why were were justified in violating the sovereignty of those nations, and going to war against them. We do not have any comparable justification for going into Zimbabwe and violating their sovereignty.

As terrible as the situation may be in Zimbabwe, it is their business, and not ours. As long as they don't significantly affect our national interests, it is not our business to tell them how to run their country; much less to intervene in the manner that it would take to bring about any change therein.

 

[jj]

You know, the way he put it probably does create a certain thought of exceptions to his rule in the mind of the opposition. I suspect he's trying to create a civil war, after all, it seems clear he's bent on as much destruction as possible.

 

[geni]

Iraq and Afghanistan were harboring terrorist groups responsible for attacking our own nation, and murdering thousands of people on our soil. This is why were were justified in violating the sovereignty of those nations, and going to war against them.

Umm the link between sadam and islamic extreamists is ah extreamly questionable. As in they wanted him dead probably more than we did.

 

[geni]

Yes, we can't allow that. Mustn't give race-baiters the slightest pretext to voice phony complaints about colonialism. Better to let a once fairly prosperous country slide into financial catastrophe and brutal despotism while its black neighbors all look the other way.

African countries slide into brutal despotism all the time and Robert Mugabe has been killing off his political oponents since the 80s. However that didn't matter because it only caused problems for black people.

If we are to accept the posibility that this time we do care about the blacks for real then we also have to accept that we don't have a vast amount of credibility.

At the moment ours and everyone else's best hope is that the MDC will somehow pull off a win anyway. This means that no one can really take any significant action until after the elections.

 

[gdnp]

I have heard Zimbabwe referred to as the breadbasket of southern Africa. Mugabe's "land reform" policies have resulted in such a decrease in agricultural production that they are now a net food importer, with large segments of the population reliant of international aid (with the aid groups recently expelled). The world grain shortage is pushing up world food prices and leading to global instability, which affects US vital interests. The Zimbabwe economic refugees in South Africa are also leading to instability.

There is justification for action if there were an international consensus. Given the level of despotism elsewhere in Africa, however, there never will be.

 

[egslim]

Better to let a once fairly prosperous country slide into financial catastrophe and brutal despotism while its black neighbors all look the other way.

You state that like we have an alternative. If we kill Mugabe through a precision strike much of the local population will rally against the white invaders, and he'll most likely be succeeded by a younger version of himself. If we invade, think Iraq, but with more trees for insurgents to hide behind. Open support for the opposition hurts their popular credibility, strengthening Mugabe.

Not to mention that infringement on a nation's sovereignty causes long terms issues in the relations with other nations. That's an easy way to make more enemies, which is not in our interests.

I don't care about race issues, or Mugabe's life, one way or the other, but I hate sticking my head into a nest of wasps for little to no gain.

 

[gdnp]

You state that like we have an alternative. If we kill Mugabe through a precision strike much of the local population will rally against the white invaders, and he'll most likely be succeeded by a younger version of himself. If we invade, think Iraq, but with more trees for insurgents to hide behind. Open support for the opposition hurts their popular credibility, strengthening Mugabe.

We could only go in with the support of the vast majority of the population. I would hate to be one of the few remaining white farmers if the black majority saw western intervention as an attempt to reestablish colonial rule.

 

[egslim]

We could only go in with the support of the vast majority of the population. I would hate to be one of the few remaining white farmers if the black majority saw western intervention as an attempt to reestablish colonial rule.

Or to be someone from the black majority having to live through the subsequent years of mayhem.

I read an article recently where the author stated that any plan depending on the local population to rise up in support is doomed to faillure.

My objection is twofold: First, that I estimate the likelyhood of support of the vast majority for an invasion to be very low. Nothing rallies a population as effectively to a common cause as a foreign invasion. Second, that it is extremely difficult to make an accurate, objective prediction beforehand of how much support you'll get. Local allies provide unreliable data, because they have an agenda. And I'll wager no Western government has an extensive intelligence network in Zimbabwe.

 

[gdnp]

How many tyrants have been successfully deposed through outside intervention? Saddam comes to mind, and does not provide a particularly attractive model. Pol Pot, perhaps? How much Cambodian resistance was their to the Vietnamese? Eastern European dictators were, AFAIK, driven out by internal opposition.

Africa might provide more examples, but my knowledge of African history is unfortunately weak.

 

[geni]

How many tyrants have been successfully deposed through outside intervention? Saddam comes to mind, and does not provide a particularly attractive model. Pol Pot, perhaps? How much Cambodian resistance was their to the Vietnamese? Eastern European dictators were, AFAIK, driven out by internal opposition.

Africa might provide more examples, but my knowledge of African history is unfortunately weak.

Idi Amin, Benito Mussolini.

It happens but less so these days.