Mueller Investigation pt5

[Aridas]

Are you under the impression that this changes anything I said? It doesn't.



I see nothing in your link which suggests any alignment with Putin.

You see nothing in the link that would align with -

Then note that Russia's involvement seems to have been directed mostly at stirring the ****, as they say, rather than trying to achieve any specific wins. Which makes sense, because that advances their aims regardless of the outcome, and the outcome didn't look like it would be a Trump win.

Of course, you might be pointedly forgetting Trump's threats to refuse to concede, frequent bluster about rigged elections, subsequent efforts to set up propaganda outlets anyways, history of championing divisive nonsense, and so much more.

 

[Ziggurat]

A decent judge should care about everything that goes on in their courtroom. Judges do not have "fights" in their courtroom. Ever. You should educate yourself on the role of judges in your legal system.

Your idealized vision of how courts should operate has little connection to how they do operate. Judges rarely toss plea deals, even when innocent people are railroaded. And Cohen isn't innocent of the more significant charges against him. The judge doesn't have to protect Cohen. It's not like Cohen doesn't have money to get adequate representation for himself.

 

[Ziggurat]

And yet, despite your "logic", Russian agents met with Trump agents in Trump Tower. Reality trumps your naïveté.

Meeting with the Trump campaign isn't illegal. Reality trumps your paranoia.

 

[Cabbage]

Meeting with the Trump campaign isn't illegal.

Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!

 

[Steve]

Your idealized vision of how courts should operate has little connection to how they do operate. Judges rarely toss plea deals, even when innocent people are railroaded. And Cohen isn't innocent of the more significant charges against him. The judge doesn't have to protect Cohen. It's not like Cohen doesn't have money to get adequate representation for himself.

Cohen is going to prison because of his crimes. All of them. He is not going to prison for anything that was not a crime. The judge has final responsibility for the sentence, even following a plea deal. A federal judge is going to read the deal for inconsistencies before sentencing. There is nothing idealized about that, merely an expectation that a professional will do their job in a professional manner. If not due to integrity, at least in the interest of covering their own ass.

 

[Ziggurat]

Cohen is going to prison because of his crimes. All of them. He is not going to prison for anything that was not a crime. The judge has final responsibility for the sentence, even following a plea deal. A federal judge is going to read the deal for inconsistencies before sentencing. There is nothing idealized about that, merely an expectation that a professional will do their job in a professional manner. If not due to integrity, at least in the interest of covering their own ass.

Suppose for the sake of argument that the payments to Stormy were not a crime.

What risk does accepting the plea deal pose to the judge? What negative consequences does he potentially face for doing so?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!

Lots of legal things are kept secret, for a variety of reasons. Are you actually confused about that?

 

[Steve]

Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!

Of course. The paper trails created by Trump and his cronies over the past five years is impeccable. Any investigation will quickly determine that everything was completely documented and legit. Nobody will ever go to jail because there is no reason to even charge anybody. This vast documentation process proves that Trump, his family, his legal team, his employees, his friends an associates are all completely trustworthy and should not be questioned. The GOP has, without any doubt, selected and elected the finest person ever to be president of your fine country. His selection of people to serve in his cabinet and as his advisors are widely acknowledged as astoundingly knowledgeablr and honest.

Because of this, whenever a potential problem is raised the appropriate documents are immediately produced along with the standard defence of "technically that was not illegal". This is immediately an unquestioningly accepted by all as proof of complete innocence.

All this combines to provide the current state of the world where political leaders of all countries are lining up to bask in the glory that is Trump's smile. And nobody would ever think of laughing at him!!!!



Oh geese, I got a little excited there.

Actually Trump is a liar and a criminal and so are all his associates. The arguments from his supporters about whether most things he does are illegal or just unethical but not actually illegal are really, really pathetic.

 

[Steve]

Suppose for the sake of argument that the payments to Stormy were not a crime.

What risk does accepting the plea deal pose to the judge? What negative consequences does he potentially face for doing so?

Why would we need to suppose that. You have stated in this thread that they were not a crime.

There may not be any tangible negative consequences to the Judge. His sloppy work in either not reading, or not adequately comprehending, the plea documents does not reflect well on his professional integrity. He may be OK with that. The legal community at large would likely not be so accepting.

 

[Cabbage]

Lots of legal things are kept secret, for a variety of reasons. Are you actually confused about that?

Is it acceptable to lie about them as well?

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Trump Tweeted

Spreading the fake and totally discredited Dossier “is unfortunately a very dark stain against John McCain.” Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel. He had far worse “stains” than this, including thumbs down on repeal and replace after years of campaigning to repeal and replace!

Meghan McCain’s response, via Twitter:

“No one will ever love you the way they loved my father.... I wish I had been given more Saturday’s with him. Maybe spend yours with your family instead of on twitter obsessing over mine?”

 

[acbytesla]

Meghan McCain’s response, via Twitter:

“No one will ever love you the way they loved my father.... I wish I had been given more Saturday’s with him. Maybe spend yours with your family instead of on twitter obsessing over mine?”

Ouch!

 

[Ziggurat]

Is it acceptable to lie about them as well?

It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why would we need to suppose that. You have stated in this thread that they were not a crime.

You disagree with me about that. One of the things you've used to argue that is that the judge would face consequences if he approved a plea deal for something that wasn't a crime. It's worth considering whether that makes any sense. And it doesn't.

There may not be any tangible negative consequences to the Judge.

May not be? Try there definitely aren't any.

His sloppy work in either not reading, or not adequately comprehending, the plea documents does not reflect well on his professional integrity. He may be OK with that. The legal community at large would likely not be so accepting.

That's manifestly not the case. Like I said, judges accept bad plea deals all the time. There's basically never repercussions for it. Even prosecutors who are primarily responsible for them rarely face any negative consequences.

And again, in this particular case it's not like Cohen is being done some great injustice here. He's definitely guilty of other stuff, and his sentence is not excessive for the other stuff he's pled to even without the Stormy payments. So what difference does it make to Cohen? None. So why should it matter to the judge?

 

[Steve]

It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.

Well this thread exists because of Trump's very questionable actions. Legality has no relevance to him.

 

[Steve]

You disagree with me about that. One of the things you've used to argue that is that the judge would face consequences if he approved a plea deal for something that wasn't a crime. It's worth considering whether that makes any sense. And it doesn't.



May not be? Try there definitely aren't any.



That's manifestly not the case. Like I said, judges accept bad plea deals all the time. There's basically never repercussions for it. Even prosecutors who are primarily responsible for them rarely face any negative consequences.

And again, in this particular case it's not like Cohen is being done some great injustice here. He's definitely guilty of other stuff, and his sentence is not excessive for the other stuff he's pled to even without the Stormy payments. So what difference does it make to Cohen? None. So why should it matter to the judge?

OK. I accept your position that ethics and correctness are not important to US judges. They would likely get in the way of future political ambitions anyway. They certainly don't count at the apex of your political pile. And they do not count to the defenders of those at the apex of your political pile.

 

[Cabbage]

It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.

How about this specific circumstance? And let's not forget all of the other concealments and lies regarding other Russian contacts with Trump as well. Was it legal when Sessions lied about Russian contacts?

You claim it wasn't in Russia's best interest to collude:

Plenty of risk and little upside with that strategy.

Yeah, they would be better off with the strategy of just having a bunch of clandestine meetings with Trump officials, merely giving the *appearance* of collusion, just for the fun of it. LOL!

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I mean who doesn't lie to federal agents investigating links into foreign interference in our elections that could shake the foundations of our democracy? Sheesh.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Putin assumed that Trump would de-legitimize the 2016 elections - before, during and after. He would have made sure that the Clinton administration would get constant criticism from the Right, obstructionism beyond the scale of the Obama years, extended to foreign policies. For that to happen, he had to mess with the voters and the elections as much as possible
If Putin had believed that Trump would win, he would have colluded LESS, because the risk of exposure is so much greater in an elected president than in a losing nominee.

 

[Ziggurat]

OK. I accept your position that ethics and correctness are not important to US judges. They would likely get in the way of future political ambitions anyway. They certainly don't count at the apex of your political pile. And they do not count to the defenders of those at the apex of your political pile.

What we're arguing about has nothing to do with what I do or do not value. It is only about how the world actually works. Describing the world in a particular way does not indicate that you want it to be so. This confuses many people, and apparently you're one of them.