Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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Sherkeu said:
Investigating any group of people will turn up some things.
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I'm pretty sure if you investigated a group of my neighbors you wouldn't find bank, tax, and real estate fraud. Maybe I'm naive but your POV seems to dismiss some pretty serious crimes as common like speeding.

Sherkeu said:
Add in that we are looking at lawyers, lobbyists, politicians, and business people, and odds are pretty high you'll gt something. Nothing so far on collusion though.
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Right, not a thing, that Trump Tower meeting, changing the GOP platform on the Ukraine, Trump's early meeting in the Oval Office with the Russian Ambassador and Foreign Minister.... come on, there is indeed evidence leaking out about collusion.

Sherkeu said:
Recall that the Whitewater investigation convicted 15 people of more than 40 crimes. I believe it clearly turned into a witchhunt that ended with a ridiculous charge of perjury for lying about a blow job. Hillary did stonewall throughout as you may recall (I don't know where those billing records are). Still, if they couldn't make it stick, they needed to end it and not go fishing for alternative 'crimes' for years.
That's something I don't want to see repeated. You can't just keep investigating indefinitely hoping something turns up.
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It's not being repeated.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Right, not a thing, that Trump Tower meeting, changing the GOP platform on the Ukraine, Trump's early meeting in the Oval Office with the Russian Ambassador and Foreign Minister.... come on, there is indeed evidence leaking out about collusion.
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If Mueller has clear and convincing evidence of collusion with a foreign adversary by a sitting POTUS, then it would be completely irresponsible to allow such a traitorous man to remain in the most powerful job on earth. Why does he let it go on? Every day this man is making decisions that affect Americans.

I think it's because he doesn't yet have the evidence he needs. The evidence you think is valid (and that we have heard about for a long time) is obviously not good enough.
Could there be another reason? Should Mueller let this man remain in power for another year before sharing what he knows to be true? 2 years? To 2024? Is there no limit?
 
Sherkeu said:
If Mueller has clear and convincing evidence of collusion with a foreign adversary by a sitting POTUS, then it would be completely irresponsible to allow such a traitorous man to remain in the most powerful job on earth. Why does he let it go on? Every day this man is making decisions that affect Americans.

I think it's because he doesn't yet have the evidence he needs. The evidence you think is valid (and that we have heard about for a long time) is obviously not good enough.
Could there be another reason? Should Mueller let this man remain in power for another year before sharing what he knows to be true? 2 years? To 2024? Is there no limit?
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Mueller will disclose his findings regarding anything pertaining to Trump personally when he has completed the investigation. It's as simple as that. He reveals the info when he is ready to make formal charges, not before.
 
Sherkeu said:
If Mueller has clear and convincing evidence of collusion with a foreign adversary by a sitting POTUS, then it would be completely irresponsible to allow such a traitorous man to remain in the most powerful job on earth. Why does he let it go on?
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Because Trump's fate will be decided in the House and Senate, not the Courts, and the Republican party shows no signs of coming to its senses?
 
Sherkeu said:
If Mueller has clear and convincing evidence of collusion with a foreign adversary by a sitting POTUS, then it would be completely irresponsible to allow such a traitorous man to remain in the most powerful job on earth. Why does he let it go on? Every day this man is making decisions that affect Americans.

I think it's because he doesn't yet have the evidence he needs. The evidence you think is valid (and that we have heard about for a long time) is obviously not good enough.
Could there be another reason? Should Mueller let this man remain in power for another year before sharing what he knows to be true? 2 years? To 2024? Is there no limit?
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Until Mueller presents his case we won't know.

I agree with you letting Trump continue given the circumstances is problematic. But I can't read Mueller's mind, what he thinks about Trump. Could be Mueller trusts the checks and balances. Could be he's afraid without massive evidence the House and Senate are going to ignore Trump's crimes. It's not like that isn't already apparent. Could be he's being thorough for history's sake given the Congress is not acting as a check on this POTUS. It's a horrid situation.

The one thing that is clear however, is Trump's campaign staff were up to their eyeballs in conspiring with the Russians and there's every reason to believe Trump was as well. And I wouldn't put it past Mueller to drag a few Congress persons in his net as well, Nunes and Rohrabacher for example.

This could be a totally BS site so take it with a grain of salt: GOP Sources Claim Hannity, Nunes and Rohrabacher Are Under Federal Investigation.

The NYT reported that the F.B.I. Once Warned G.O.P. Congressman [Rohrabacher] That Russian Spies Were Recruiting Him.. GOP members let it slip Rohrabacher was getting Russian money before Paul Ryan told them to shut up, the mike was live.

The point is you don't know what Mueller is working on. But we do know he has plenty of evidence of wrongdoing that involves Trump.
 
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Sherkeu said:
If Mueller has clear and convincing evidence of collusion with a foreign adversary by a sitting POTUS, then it would be completely irresponsible to allow such a traitorous man to remain in the most powerful job on earth. Why does he let it go on? Every day this man is making decisions that affect Americans.

I think it's because he doesn't yet have the evidence he needs. The evidence you think is valid (and that we have heard about for a long time) is obviously not good enough.
Could there be another reason? Should Mueller let this man remain in power for another year before sharing what he knows to be true? 2 years? To 2024? Is there no limit?
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Stacyhs said:
Mueller will disclose his findings regarding anything pertaining to Trump personally when he has completed the investigation. It's as simple as that. He reveals the info when he is ready to make formal charges, not before.
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Aber said:
Because Trump's fate will be decided in the House and Senate, not the Courts, and the Republican party shows no signs of coming to its senses?
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It of course is not as simple as Sherkeu suggests that it is. What level of proof is required? Preponderance of evidence as is required in a civil proceeding or does it require evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Or does the removal of POTUS require an even higher standard?

Simple partisanship seems to suggest that Trump standing over the body with a smoking gun would not be enough for many Republicans. I mean think about it. Senator Ted Cruz suggested that the police officer that killed an unarmed black man in his own apartment wasn't in the wrong.

I believe that the preponderance of evidence clearly shows that the President is guilty of conspiracy as well as obstruction and suborning perjury. But I don't think what is publicly known is enough for the Republican majority. Mueller isn't nor should he be rushed to put all the dots together. After all, it's only been a week since Manafort agreed to cooperate.

Let justice play out. Indict Jared and Jr and see if they flip first.
 
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Aber said:
Because Trump's fate will be decided in the House and Senate, not the Courts, and the Republican party shows no signs of coming to its senses?
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If some smoking gun evidence comes out, like Nixon's tapes, he won't have many defenders. They don't exactly like the guy as it is.
 
Sherkeu said:
If some smoking gun evidence comes out, like Nixon's tapes, he won't have many defenders. They don't exactly like the guy as it is.
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He'll have many defenders among the Trump faithful. Expect to hear protests that Mueller rigged it, it's part of the Deep State's conspiracy, etc. You can bet on it.
 
Sherkeu said:
If some smoking gun evidence comes out, like Nixon's tapes, he won't have many defenders. They don't exactly like the guy as it is.
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Who's they? More than a few members of Congress couldn't be happier.

As for smoking gun evidence, anything can be dismissed.
 
Stacyhs said:
He'll have many defenders among the Trump faithful. Expect to hear protests that Mueller rigged it, it's part of the Deep State's conspiracy, etc. You can bet on it.
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Seriously. Trump has a freakin' cult!

Sen. Bob Corker says the GOP is becoming 'cult-like' in its support of President Trump
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We are in a strange place,” the Tennessee Republican and chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee told reporters in Washington.

“It’s almost, it’s becoming a cultish thing, isn’t it? It’s not a good place for any party to end up with a cult-like situation as it relates to a president that happens to be of, purportedly, of the same party.”
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And that's a Republican senator saying that.
 
I agree that a lot of Trump's support is cult-like. They cheer no matter what he says, no matter how big a lie or how outrageous it is. They literally think he was sent by God. They not only excuse him no matter what he does, they support it. They have left critical thinking behind and just blindly accept whatever he says as The Truth. They truly would accept him shooting someone in the middle of Times Square and find a "reason" why he wasn't wrong to do it. It's no longer the GOP; it's the Party of Trump. And it's scary as hell.
 
Sherkeu said:
If some smoking gun evidence comes out, like Nixon's tapes, he won't have many defenders. They don't exactly like the guy as it is.
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This sort of proves the point that you're arguing against.

If a Democrat POTUS had behaved the way Trump has since his election, this Congress would have already impeached him.

Their liking for the guy has nothing to do with their constant, fervent, and disingenuous defense of him. It only has to do with how he affects their chances of staying in power.

It'll take more than any kind of evidence to change that. Only the loss of the Trump core voters would change anything.

And those voters don't give a flying hoot about "evidence".
 
Stacyhs said:
I agree that a lot of Trump's support is cult-like. They cheer no matter what he says, no matter how big a lie or how outrageous it is. They literally think he was sent by God. They not only excuse him no matter what he does, they support it. They have left critical thinking behind and just blindly accept whatever he says as The Truth. They truly would accept him shooting someone in the middle of Times Square and find a "reason" why he wasn't wrong to do it. It's no longer the GOP; it's the Party of Trump. And it's scary as hell.
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Their cultish thought process extends far beyond events directly related to Trump, too. Now ANYTHING that happens that doesn't align with their narrative/worldview gets written off as "fake news".

Cults are known for using "thought-stopping phrases". https://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/some-thought-stopping-techniques/

Just defaulting to "fake news" is one of the biggest and most effective ever.
 
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kellyb said:
Their cultish thought process extends far beyond events directly related to Trump, too. Now ANYTHING that happens that doesn't align with their narrative/worldview gets written off as "fake news".

Cults are known for using "thought-stopping phrases". https://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/some-thought-stopping-techniques/

Just defaulting to "fake news" is one of the biggest and most effective ever.
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Agreed.

The article you linked was very interesting and it reminded me of an incident a few years ago. I had an aunt who belonged to a religion a lot of people, including myself and even some countries, consider a cult. My mother once asked her some questions about certain of its teachings and she couldn't answer them. She said "I don't understand it, but I believe it." When asked how she could believe something she didn't understand, she became extremely defensive and started crying. When she calmed down, she told us that she had questions about her religion and had gone to those she was taught could answer them. They gave her their answers, but when she still expressed doubt, she was basically told that she must just accept the answers and stop questioning the church's teachings or she could be 'disciplined'. In this particular church, this could include ostracism from other members which would have essentially affected her entire life.
 
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