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You haven't even seen all the evidence.

Neither have you. So how does that make any difference? To the extent that it's possible unseen evidence could in principle invalidate my position, it could in principle invalidate yours too. So unless your position is basically agnosticism about the validity of this charge (and that hasn't been your position thus far), this is an irrelevant objection. Either we draw conclusions on the basis of what we know, or we withhold drawing conclusions. Which is it to be?
 
In this case, it "affected an election" by depriving voters of information that may or may not have affected their decision. That's immoral on its face, regardless of the law.

The DNC not releasing their own emails voluntarily tried to affect the election by depriving voters of information that may have affected their decision. Was that immoral? I eagerly await your special pleading.

Your morals are remarkably situational. Furthermore, moral judgments cannot be used as a substitute for legal judgments.
 
The DNC not releasing their own emails voluntarily tried to affect the election by depriving voters of information that may have affected their decision. Was that immoral? I eagerly await your special pleading.

You certainly do put a lot of weight on your own assumptions. You haven't, and won't, see any such special pleadings from me. If someone knew the emails contained some damaging information and the DNC paid them to keep quiet, that would be just as immoral.

Your morals are remarkably situational. Furthermore, moral judgments cannot be used as a substitute for legal judgments.

I didn't say they were. I said that, to me, this is a more serious offence than Clinton lying about an affair because it may be the reason we have this horrible atrocity of an administration.
 
That is not addressing what I said, which was addressing what you have been arguing upthread (see the exchange with Smartcooky)- not the moved goalpoasts.

OF COURSE judges, despite their best efforts, will have accepted guilty pleas from people who are actually innocent. Nobody is disputing that.

However that is quite different from a judge accepting a guilty plea to something when their reading of the law is that no crime has been committed.
That's how one's brain tricks itself.
 
You have this completely backwards. I have been saying for pages and pages now that the real question hinges upon whether or not the payment to Stormy qualifies for the personal use exemption. If it qualifies for the personal use exemption, none of these other claims can change that, and Cohen is innocent of that charge. If it doesn't qualify for the personal use exemption, then none of these other claims are necessary, and he's guilty. I am not the one trying to focus on all this other bull ****. I'm not the one assuming no bias is possible, and that the lack of bias proves something about the law.

I think your personal use exception argument is absurd. It's grasping at straws. Basically you could say that almost any in kind contribution fit the personal exception exemption then.

Michael Cohen knew what he was doing when he presented a check for $130,000 to Stephanie Clifford and more importantly why. Cohen has admitted the payment was made for the purpose of influencing the 2016 Presidential election. Also, the timing of the payment offers support for his motivation.

No amount of saying a contribution isn't a contribution will EVER make that true.
 
One big difference in my mind is the significance of the offences: It's quite possible that we wouldn't have a president Trump if he hadn't made those hush money payments.

Which, while it is a worthy thing to consider, deals with something notably different, in my opinion. It's well worth remembering that impeaching Trump would not undo anything. Nor would it indicate that the election was invalid because of broken laws. Some entirely different means, like a Supreme Court decision to overturn the election, would be required to indicate that.

You have this completely backwards. I have been saying for pages and pages now that the real question hinges upon whether or not the payment to Stormy qualifies for the personal use exemption. If it qualifies for the personal use exemption, none of these other claims can change that, and Cohen is innocent of that charge. If it doesn't qualify for the personal use exemption, then none of these other claims are necessary, and he's guilty. I am not the one trying to focus on all this other bull ****.

Take a step back? When I pointed out what you were doing there with your use of bias, it was a direct response to your usage of bias in the post that was quoted there. From the part directly before that, it should have been quite clear that the overall argument that you made regarding the personal use exemption is a fair point, even if I think that there's more to the equation of when it's actually validly in play than you would prefer to admit in this case.

I'm not the one assuming no bias is possible, and that the lack of bias proves something about the law.

And bias is bandied about on the right, somewhat similarly to how racism has been bandied around on the left. It's frequently given far too much importance by those who use it. The overall disagreement by those who disagree with you is that you're stretching, quite a bit, in your interpretation, not that bias couldn't possibly be in play at all. Rather, the counterpoint to the bias claim is that even if there was bias in play, that bias doesn't matter if the charges are valid, which everyone officially involved, who also happen to have relevant experience backing up their stance, says that they are. Of course, I'm not going to argue that all specific arguments presented by either side are valid, but I just don't feel like even trying to address everything in a thread that's moved this fast.
 
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Trump Tweets

".@LindseyGrahamSC “Every President deserves an Attorney General they have confidence in. I believe every President has a right to their Cabinet, these are not lifetime appointments. You serve at the pleasure of the President.”

"Jeff Sessions said he wouldn’t allow politics to influence him only because he doesn’t understand what is happening underneath his command position. Highly conflicted Bob Mueller and his gang of 17 Angry Dems are having a field day as real corruption goes untouched. No Collusion!"
 
Which, while it is a worthy thing to consider, deals with something notably different, in my opinion. It's well worth remembering that impeaching Trump would not undo anything. Nor would it indicate that the election was invalid because of broken laws. Some entirely different means, like a Supreme Court decision to overturn the election, would be required to indicate that.

It would, however, take the reins of power away from someone who is mentally unstable and whose malignant narcissism is doing considerable deliberate damage to our democracy. Anyway, this scandal is just a microcosm of the appalling dishonesty that is the Trump administration, so impeaching him for this would be like getting Al Capone for tax evasion.
 
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Trump Tweets

“The FBI looked at less than 1%” of Crooked’s Emails!

“The FBI only looked at 3000 of 675,000 Crooked Hillary Clinton Emails.” They purposely didn’t look at the disasters. This news is just out. @FoxNews"

"Big story out that the FBI ignored tens of thousands of Crooked Hillary Emails, many of which are REALLY BAD. Also gave false election info. I feel sure that we will soon be getting to the bottom of all of this corruption. At some point I may have to get involved!"
 
I am not sure that the simple binary "would pay/would not pay" suffices as the relevant test here.

it might additionally be of interest if he would have paid the same amount.



E.g., to illustrate:

  • Without running for office, he would have paid $60,000
  • He actually paid $130,000
  • Hence, $60,000 are personal use, $70,000 are campaign use



Good post.
 
As to whether Cohen plead guilty to non-crimes -- a theory originating from Mark Levin, whackjob extraordinaire -- an actual expert opinion:

Trevor Potter said:
What we know about the facts would provide substantial evidence to any jury that these payments were all about influencing the election at a crucial moment, rather than purely personal matters — and thus, the payments were violations of federal election laws.
 
I am not sure that the simple binary "would pay/would not pay" suffices as the relevant test here.
it might additionally be of interest if he would have paid the same amount.

E.g., to illustrate:
  • Without running for office, he would have paid $60,000
  • He actually paid $130,000
  • Hence, $60,000 are personal use, $70,000 are campaign use

The statute allows for no such separation of costs in a case like this, nor do I see how you can realistically do such an analysis.
 
As to whether Cohen plead guilty to non-crimes -- a theory originating from Mark Levin, whackjob extraordinaire -- an actual expert opinion:
Potter's series with Colbert exposing how millions of dollars can be moved around for all kinds of election influencing purposes entirely anonymously and legally was brilliant.

Also, again just goes to show how helplessly stupid this bunch is. In this country you can use money in politics, so it takes some seriously willful stupidity to manage to do it illegally.
 
I think your personal use exception argument is absurd. It's grasping at straws. Basically you could say that almost any in kind contribution fit the personal exception exemption then.

Michael Cohen knew what he was doing when he presented a check for $130,000 to Stephanie Clifford and more importantly why. Cohen has admitted the payment was made for the purpose of influencing the 2016 Presidential election. Also, the timing of the payment offers support for his motivation.

No amount of saying a contribution isn't a contribution will EVER make that true.

Yes, there is prima facie evidence that Trump committed a crime. He should put on trial, like anyone else would be.
 
Trump Tweets

“The FBI looked at less than 1%” of Crooked’s Emails!

“The FBI only looked at 3000 of 675,000 Crooked Hillary Clinton Emails.” They purposely didn’t look at the disasters. This news is just out. @FoxNews"

"Big story out that the FBI ignored tens of thousands of Crooked Hillary Emails, many of which are REALLY BAD. Also gave false election info. I feel sure that we will soon be getting to the bottom of all of this corruption. At some point I may have to get involved!"

Sheesh. Trump's desperation is getting worse as more of his "friends" are turning on him. These tweets are nothing more than his to-be-expected attempts at diversion. Literally EMAILS! HILLARY!

I've got news for Trump; he's already involved in the corruption.
 
As to whether Cohen plead guilty to non-crimes -- a theory originating from Mark Levin, whackjob extraordinaire -- an actual expert opinion:

And here's a countervailing opinion from another actual expert, former FEC chairman Bradley Smith:

However, regardless of what Cohen agreed to in a plea bargain, hush-money payments to mistresses are not really campaign expenditures. It is true that “contribution” and “expenditure” are defined in the Federal Election Campaign Act as anything “for the purpose of influencing any election,” and it may have been intended and hoped that paying hush money would serve that end. The problem is that almost anything a candidate does can be interpreted as intended to “influence an election,” from buying a good watch to make sure he gets to places on time, to getting a massage so that he feels fit for the campaign trail, to buying a new suit so that he looks good on a debate stage. Yet having campaign donors pay for personal luxuries — such as expensive watches, massages and Brooks Brothers suits — seems more like bribery than funding campaign speech.

That’s why another part of the statute defines “personal use” as any expenditure “used to fulfill any commitment, obligation, or expense of a person that would exist irrespective of the candidate’s election campaign.” These may not be paid with campaign funds, even though the candidate might benefit from the expenditure. Not every expense that might benefit a candidate is an obligation that exists solely because the person is a candidate.

If you prefer to believe Trevor Potter over Bradley Smith, fine. But this pretense that it's just wackjobs who think the personal use exemption comes into play here is just nonsense.
 
And here's a countervailing opinion from another actual expert, former FEC chairman Bradley Smith:

If you prefer to believe Trevor Potter over Bradley Smith, fine. But this pretense that it's just wackjobs who think the personal use exemption comes into play here is just nonsense.

The problem of course is it is close to impossible to argue that this was for personal use. And who would know better it's purpose then the one who made it?
 
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