Skeptic Ginger
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Or are you (TP) just echoing the GOP/Trump Party line?
Mueller Investigation pt 6
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
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It's a bit of a derail, but Saddam Hussein's actions in retrospect seemed aimed at trying to convince others that he had no WMDs but was running a program to obtain them. Even down to setting up a pesticide plant and a castor oil plant next to each other, when the former would be very similar to a nerve agent plant, and the latter similarly for ricin, and both in a complex that had made WMDs previously.
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
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Trump Tweets
Robert Mueller is being asked to testify yet again. He said he could only stick to the Report, & that is what he would and must do. After so much testimony & total transparency, this Witch Hunt must now end. No more Do Overs. No Collusion, No Obstruction. The Great Hoax is dead!
Robert Mueller is being asked to testify yet again. He said he could only stick to the Report, & that is what he would and must do. After so much testimony & total transparency, this Witch Hunt must now end. No more Do Overs. No Collusion, No Obstruction. The Great Hoax is dead!
tanabear
Critical Thinker
Who from Russia provided dirt on Hillary Clinton to the Trump campaign? The FBI Crossfire Hurricane investigation was initiated over the meeting between Joseph Mifsud and George Papadopoulos. There was no "dirt" that was provided to the Trump campaign and Joseph Mifsud is obviously not a Russian agent.
This is where the skeptics skill at semantics comes into play. You are referring to Christopher Steele as the non-government foreign source. Christopher Steele was not the source of the information. He was a compiler and launderer of information. What were the sources? The Steele Dossier lists them as:
- sources A and B, a senior Russian Foreign Ministry figure and a former top level Russian intelligence officer still active inside the Kremlin respectively.
- Source B (the former top level Russian intelligence officer)
- Source G, a senior Kremlin official
- Source E, an ethnic Russian close associate of Republican US presidential candidate Donald TRUMP.
So the sources were senior Russian officials. Christopher Steele was just the errand boy.
My scenarios hold. The Clinton campaign, the DNC, Fusion GPS, and Christopher Steele got fake dirt on Trump from Russian sources and used it to launch a coup attempt to overthrow his Presidency. The reason for the investigation into the Trump campaign? Because he got "dirt" on Clinton to sway an election.
Scenario 1: A Republican presidential campaign gets dirt on their political opponent from foreign sources, so investigate the Republican candidate and his campaign for colluding with a foreign power to sway an election.
Scenario 2: A Democratic presidential campaign gets dirt on their political opponent from foreign sources, so investigate the Republican candidate and his campaign for whatever the alleged crimes are.
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Delphic Oracle
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
Correct. But only in the fact that it was delivered to the entire world population.
Ok. Super. Thanks for sharing.
This is where nitwits take pot shots.
Christopher Steele is the "source" in legal/investigative parlance because he's the one attesting to the veracity of the data.
As is typical, after making an accusation of playing semantics, you literally started playing semantics.
I love how you surgically extract the other GOP candidates who used Steele for opposition research out of your list of boogeymen.
Of course, this entire proceeding is you trying to "change the venue" of the conversation.
Accepting opposition research, even opposition research collected with the assistance of foreign nationals, is not remotely illegal or improper (unless you're really careless about it). You have to understand the philosophy of electoral oversight as it stands. There's very little in the grand scheme of things that the agencies will ever do to you, assuming this one important thing: you just straight up say that's what you're doing.
The idea is bribery and nepotism and corruption are going to happen, if you enforce it away, it just goes under the table and gets harder to spot and starts to overlap with really dangerous illicit activities (organized crime and the like). So enforce lightly and have lots of rules about being transparent about it. In that sense, the enforcement is supposed to come by way of we the voters, armed with information that our elected officials are scum, doing something about it. So in such a system, when you have people subverting oversight, failing to disclose things, or outright lying, the people are denied their right to know who pays them, who influences them, who they're talking to. Also, at the same time, you've got that problem again of the monitored activity going under the table creating even more problems.
It's not that the subversion makes it too ambiguous to tell if a crime happened or not. The subversion is the crime.
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Skeptic Ginger
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Here we go again trying to point facts and evidence out to someone who has had the Men In Black flash treatment.
PhantomWolf
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No they don't. When the investigation into Trump started he wasn't President and few people, including himself, actually believed that he would be. Such an investigation is not a Coup.
The Dossier was not given to the FBI by the Clinton campaign. They got a copy from Senator McCain and a second copy via Steele himself. This is not a Coup.
Next, even if the report came back with glaring evidence of illegal coordination with the Russians, then the standard method of dealing with such is impeachment and then trial by the Senate. This is not a Coup.
Finally, even if Trump is impeached and removed, this is still not a coup, and the VP, Pence would become President as is required by the CotUS, and the Republicans would still hold the Presidency.
ETA: I'm going to also point out that nothing in the Steele Dossier has be proven to be fake, in fact much of it has been verified and found to be true. Some of it has not been shown true, but I'd also note that the reaction, as spelled out by Hope Hicks to the House Committee, by his campaign and messages to and from Russia when rumours started about the pp tape the day right after the Access Hollywood Tape broke certainly do lend more credence to it. After all if Trump knew that simply wasn't true, then why would his campaign have suddenly switched from panic over the very real Access Hollywood tape, to the getting the rumours quashed and assurances from fixers in Russia that all evidence would be "lost"?
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Skeptic Ginger
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Watch out, here comes the flash to wipe that memory out.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Wikileaks, by way of the public. Trump asked for it, the Russians provided to Wikileaks - deal done!
Crossfire Hurricane was initiated before Trump became president, ergo
Delphic Oracle has done a good job of pointing out the colossal flaws in this, no need for me to bother adressing.
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The Great Zaganza
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Deep State CTs against Trump are exactly like Flat Earthers.
PhantomWolf
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Your new avatar is perfect for that. "Oh no, not again..."
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
Thank you.
Republicans, in general, are muddying up the timeline. Almost on purpose, it seems!
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quadraginta
Becoming Beth
The "almost" is needlessly kind.
This is one of those situations where 'the benefit of the doubt' is unearned and unnecessary.
tanabear
Critical Thinker
Now you are just grasping for straws. How can Christopher Steele attest to the veracity of the information if he was not witness to any of the events? The actual sources, not the "legal sources", were high-ranking Russian officials. It says so in the Steele Dossier itself which I was quoting from. So I'm not the one engaged in semantics. Christopher Steele compiled the information, he was not the source. Does he even stand-by his dossier today?
It was am insurance policy to go after Trump in case he was elected. Trump was elected and this fake Russian collusion conspiracy theory has dominated the first few years of his Presidency.
The only ones coordinating with the Russians, that we know about, are the DNC, the Clinton campaign, Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele. No one on the Left cares about this because "Russian collusion" is just a pre-text to overthrow a President they hate.
Haha. What a joke! If you'll buy that I've got a Russian consulate in Miami to sell you.
p.s. But I thought it didn't matter if the information was true or false. If it came from a foreign source, like Russia, then it was automatically tainted and we should investigate those who spread the information, not the ones accused. Oh wait....Go back to my scenarios to understand the difference.
Scenario 1: A Republican presidential campaign gets dirt on their political opponent from foreign sources, so investigate the Republican candidate and his campaign for colluding with a foreign power to sway an election.
Scenario 2: A Democratic presidential campaign gets dirt on their political opponent from foreign sources, so investigate the Republican candidate and his campaign for whatever the alleged crimes are.
Delphic Oracle
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All that's left at this point is to start collecting donations for an independent "investigation" to find the thermite residue mastermind of the coup.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
You know this how?
In your mind perhaps. Trump's idiocy and ridiculous lying has dominated it in most people's minds.
Who do you mean by the Russians"? Please stipulate which Russians, because there are lots of Russians in the world. Particularly in Russia.
Inquiring minds would like to know what really went on.
Nobody believes you have. You lack credibility.
A foreign power, you say. And there was no dirt, remember. The Trump campaign was promised dirt on Clinton from the Russian government (a foreign power) as part of its effort to assist Trump, and they'd have loved to take it, but it turned out to be garbage. No dirt on Clinton discovered, but Russian government efforts to influence the election in Trump's favour revealed to the Trump campaign (which concealed them). That's worth investigating, don't you think?
Not a foreign power.
So you concede that there actually was dirt on Trump and it was discovered. Presumably you're referring to the Trump Tower Moscow dealings which Trump lied about during the campaign and ever since. Why, in your estimation, did Trump lie about that?
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
I think tanabear's horizons are far too narrow for it to be anybody foreign, so it's probably Obama who, as US President, could have every agency in the world (such as GCHQ) do his bidding, along with all the notoriously leftist US gumment agencies.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
There is no doubt its on purpose. One of the ways that corrupt politicians and their supporters try to hide their wrongdoing is to sow confusion and disruption and to continually create distractions. Part of that is confusing the timelines; counting on people being unable to specifically recall who did what and when, and lying to them about it. Another thing they do is what tanabear is doing right now; re-characterising established facts to subvert them to mean something different from what they actually mean in reality. Those of us who are paying attention to what is actually happening need to remain vigilant and call this BS out when we see it.
Right now, Americans are undergoing the softening up process. Trump is continually doing and saying more and more outrageous things every week. He is stoking the outrage of the public; confinement of immigrants is atrocious conditions, continuing family separations despite lying about an end to that policy, cold and callous reactions to the plight of migrants, stonewalling Congress oversight, defying the law with his tax returns, having Barr tell absolute lies about the Mueller report and now threatening to openly defy the Supreme Court. None of this is by accident, its a well thought out plan to achieve two ends.
1. to stoke up the morons in his base so that they don't lose faith in him
2. to make the end game he has planned not seem so bad as what he has been doing previously.
And that end game is that he will try to bludgeon his way back into the Presidency in 2020. Right now, his popularity with registered voters is about 43%. That is frighteningly close to the 46% he won on in 2016, so if he can keep his ~30% deplorables in line, he only needs to convince ~16% (another 3% - those stupid enough to still not be able to see through his BS) to vote for him, and he could win again. If he fails, and loses the election, I am quite sure he will refuse to step down. He knows perfectly well that if he gets voted out in 2020 and America gets a (D) President (even if they don't flip the Senate) Trump will be in big trouble. A (D) President will clear out the Trump lackeys at the DoJ, DHS and the rest of the alphabet soup, and then the House will get their hands on all the criminal stuff that Trump has been trying to hide. He's a criminal, and he knows it.
I say "even if they don't flip the Senate" because a (D) President and a (D) House will render a Republican Senate impotent. An (R) Senate will be able to do nothing the House doesn't want, because the (D) POTUS will not sign off on it. If the House wants something legislated, and an (R) Senate won't play ball, they will just bypass the Senate, and the (D) POTUS signs it off by Executive Order.
This is the world that Trump and GOP have created, and I predict it is going to come back and bite them in the arse - hard, and soon!
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
In exactly the same way that a policeman can attest to the veracity of witness testimony against a suspect even if he didn't personally witness the suspect's criminal act, because he is testifying ABOUT THE EVIDENCE.
You're really not very good at this are you?
Christopher Steele is a former British intelligence officer... HE HAS CONTACTS! His contacts provided him with with personal accounts and documentary evidence to back up what those contacts saw, heard and read. Steele put it all together in a dossier called a "Raw Intel Report". Raw intel is, simply put, data gathered by an intelligence operation, such as surveillance, espionage or sigint. A Raw Intel Report merely contains that data. It contains no evaluation, conclusions or opinions about the data. The writer of a Raw Intel Report does not attest to the veracity of the data he was given, he only attests that it is the data he was given. The veracity of the data itself is determined by those who evaluate it.
So far, the Steele Dossier has been devastatingly accurate....
1. All of the data that has been able to be checked has been found to be correct.
2. That which has not been shown to be correct, has either not yet been checked, or cannot be checked.
3. Most importantly NOTHING in the Steele Dossier has been shown to be wrong... nothing!
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