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MoveOn.org ... "Shut UP!"

Please define the "spirit" of the First Amendment (which is actually the First Article to the Bill of Rights, but I'm nit-picking).

Two ideas:

1) No-one was censored or issued a "gag order."

2) The mere fact that everyone has an equal right to free speech does not mean that everyone has something equally important to say (take a look at some of the crapazoidally obtuse comments that I have made!).
I've seen enough of your comments to know that at least part of your point is right.

My problem is that Congress as a whole is wasting our time to issue declarations condemning people for exercising their rights. It carries the implication that they would like to ban speech, even though they can't in this case. It is one of those cases where people who should know better are giving the appearance of impropriety, even though they skate by on a technicality.

My main problem is, who do these people think they are? Congress does NOT have any rights. It has no right to free speech, certainly.
 
Try coming up with an insight that impresses me instead of what you've shown so far.

GOP SUCKS is not original nor insightful. Its more like stating "SKY IS BLUE".

Which is to say, you display a childlike view of the topic that merely skims the surface of it and don't show any real deep analytical view of it.

Too bad. Next time I'm posting FOR YOUR PERSONAL EDUCATION AND ENJOYMENT, I'll keep that in mind. Until then, you can get bent.
 
Really? Good to know. I guess my copy of the Constitution is out of date.

Nope, it is your understanding of it that is lacking. People have rights. "Congress" doesn't have rights, it has powers allotted to it by the Constitution, and restrictions on those powers. There's not a right in sight.
 
Nope, it is your understanding of it that is lacking. People have rights. "Congress" doesn't have rights, it has powers allotted to it by the Constitution, and restrictions on those powers. There's not a right in sight.


Ok, I'll play your semantic game: Congress has the power to exercise free speech.
 
Has anyone read the MoveOn ad? What is factual wrong with it?

The ad was run in the NYT, you know, that liberal rag that the right wing likes to rant about.

I hate the fact that this is getting more coverage than OJ.

Charlie (did the Senate condemn the Swiftboaters?) Monoxide
 
The Dems pull stunts to make GOP look like cigar smoking robber barons who eat the poor.

Exhibit 1: What's that in the mouth of your avatar?! Hmm? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I think we've found our robber-baron. ;)

Seriously, though: The one thing I will say, however about this resolution is why did they say "General Petraeus and all the members of the United States Armed Forces"? Did the MoveOn ad say anything about "all the members of the United States Armed Forces"?

Just asking.

Now, the congress has its right to free speech, too. So I don't really have a problem with them passing resolutions to condemn this and that, as long as it doesn't interfere with real business.
Members are free to agree or disagee, and voters are free to judge their representatives based thereon.

I always support the troops, but that doesn't mean that a 4-star general should always be immune from criticism. In principle; I'm not agreeing with MoveOn here.

WaPo fact-checked the MoveOn ad and concluded that it rated 3 out of 4 pinocchios, meaning that it contains "Significant factual error and/or obvious contradictions." Clearly this was a tactical defeat for MoveOn.
 
Congress does NOT have any rights. It has no right to free speech, certainly.

I like where you are going with this. Congressmen are not citizens who are entitled to the protections of the constitution. By extension they must not be U.S. Citizens once elected. Therefore, they must be on U.S. soil illegally, and ALL CONGRESSMEN (OR WOMEN) MUST BE DEPORTED IMMEDIATLY!

WELL DONE!
 
Certainly, it is a violation of the spirit of the First Amendment.

No, it isn't. Free speech means protection from the force of law. It does not mean, and CANNOT mean, protection from criticism. And that's all this resolution is. Whether or not you agree with it, it's just criticism, and criticism of speech is not and has never been a violation of the spirit of the first ammendment. It's a necessary component.

My problem is that Congress as a whole is wasting our time to issue declarations condemning people for exercising their rights.

So what? Congress wastes time all the time, why is this any different? And you can exercise your rights all you want to, but having a right to do something does not shield you from criticism for doing it. That's part of the whole bloody point: people have the right to do things they shouldn't do. So how do we cope with people having the ability to do things they shouldn't do? Well, one way would be to take away the right to do things you shouldn't do, but that's a solution we like, I think you'll agree. Another is to try to use persuasion, which includes criticism, and accept that it won't work all the time. Buty we cannot function without some corrective mechanism, whether that mechanism has the force of law or not. Having the ability to criticise people for doing something they have the right to do is critical to how our society operates. And the ability to criticise means that we also have to allow criticism whether or not it's warranted, just like we have to let people do some things even if they shouldn't do them.

It carries the implication that they would like to ban speech, even though they can't in this case.

No, it really doesn't. Haven't you heard the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? An expression of disapproval need have no connection whatsoever with a desire to ban that speech. Surely you don't feel that way yourself, do you? Haven't you come across speech you disagree with vehemently without actually wanting to use the force of law to prevent it?

My main problem is, who do these people think they are? Congress does NOT have any rights. It has no right to free speech, certainly.

Oh, but it does have rights, even if those aren't the same as yours and mine. And unless there is a restriction on its ability to say something (which clearly isn't the case here), then it most certainly does have the right to say it.
 
Seriously, though: The one thing I will say, however about this resolution is why did they say "General Petraeus and all the members of the United States Armed Forces"? Did the MoveOn ad say anything about "all the members of the United States Armed Forces"?

Just asking.
I heard some remarks Pres Bush recently made on this topic, in which he stated that moveon.org, in slandering General P, was attacking also all of the troops.

Actually, Mr President, no, they were going after you when attacking the general who you sent to Congress to testify about how things are going in Iraq.

DR
 
Correct me if I'm wrong - but does anyone who voted for the
resolution actually believes in the first amendment by him-/herself?
Or didn't they read the content of the resolution - once again?

The purpose isn't to censor -- it does nothing of the sort.

The purpose is to publically, and evidently officially, shame them for they methods, i.e. words, that they used. To teach them that "betrayal" is a fine word when you're barfing up to your own True Believers, but that some people actually, surprise, take it seriously.

"But...but...but we are serious!"

"Now we know you're not serious. Good-bye, MoveOn.org. We shan't be associating with you anymore."



That's about the sum of it.
 
Actually, you could more accurately say "the GOP pull stunts that make GOP look like cigar smoking robber barons who eat the poor."
:D

well jeez, you said something I agree with. I am off to buy a lotto ticket and to place a bet on the Rockies making it to the playoffs.
 
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Actually, Mr President, no, they were going after you when attacking the general who you sent to Congress to testify about how things are going in Iraq.

DR

Just one slight change is needed to your description above. Bush did not send the general to Congress. Bush nominated the general and Congress unanimously appointed the general to take charge of forces in Iraq. Part of the job Congress and the President sent him to do was to update Congress on conditions in Iraq on a periodic basis. Which is what he was doing.
 
Something more insidious, its meant to portray the democrat candidates for president as being unpatriotic. Its been part of the US Republican playbook for years. The GOP pulls stunts to make Dems look like commies and hippies. The Dems pull stunts to make GOP look like cigar smoking robber barons who eat the poor.

I didn't realize there were 75 GOP Senators. Hmmm.

The moveon ad was in incredible poor taste, it was wrong (factually), and insidious. If an ad like that was taken out in, say 1943 in the New York Times calling Eisenhower, or Patton, or any other General a traitor. I'm assuming there'd be some MoveOn and New York Times employees locked up late into 1945.

However bad in taste and inaccurate it was... It was their right to place the ad.

Now, the NY Times giving them a discount rate to them, but not other PACs. Well, that's a whole other story for the FEC to handle.
 
Oliver: With all due respect, and I do respect your opinions and commentary on a variety of subjects, I think one of the points you seem to miss time and time again is that Freedom of Speech does NOT include Freedom from Ridicule for said exercise in Freedom of Speech.

In otherwords... Freedom of Speech is a two way street.
 
Now, the NY Times giving them a discount rate to them, but not other PACs. Well, that's a whole other story for the FEC to handle.

Do you have proof of that claim?

It's been denied by both MoveOn and NYT. The ad cost $65,000 ...

Charlie (where did you get that?) Monoxide
 
Something more insidious, its meant to portray the democrat candidates for president as being unpatriotic. Its been part of the US Republican playbook for years. The GOP pulls stunts to make Dems look like commies and hippies. The Dems pull stunts to make GOP look like cigar smoking robber barons who eat the poor.

While Im rushing to grab my tinfoil hat, how many democrats voted against this vs how many are in the senate?
 
Do you have proof of that claim?

It's been denied by both MoveOn and NYT. The ad cost $65,000 ...

Charlie (where did you get that?) Monoxide

Which is why I said it's a whole other story and it's for the FEC to investigate if there's been a complaint.

However, they did give that rate to Giuliani when he complained that he should get the same rate.
 

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