Most Republicans Are Birthers?

[Kritikos]

Linky.

Thanky.

 

[Piggy]

I don't think so. Linky.

Another urban myth debunked!

Thanks!

 

[Piggy]

It's funny to read the posts from those who suspect that the poll numbers may be overblown.

They might, of course.

But where I live, birtherism is about as common as crabgrass.

I know many people (and overhear even more) who believe much worse about Obama.

And in fact, these pre-existing beliefs make fertile soil for birtherism, since people are much more prone to agree uncritically with new information that supports what they already believe than we are to disagree with it or to agree with new information that challenges what we already believe.

There's an all-too-popular view in my neck of the woods that Obama is a secret Muslim groomed for life to infiltrate the US political system.

Trained in Indonesian madrasas, he was carefully prepped by his handlers and brought, step by step, into the halls of power by their allies inside the American power system.

Once they had gotten him into the Senate via the corrupt Chicago power machine, he was unleashed at the Democratic convention in a nationally televised speech. Fellow travelers within the mainstream media talked him up, and gullible liberal journalists followed their lead, transforming this one-man sleeper cell into an instant political celebrity.

With massive funding from George Soros and illegal campaign contributions orginating in rogue states, communist nations, and jihadist organizations, the Obama machine took advantage of child-minded, ivory-tower liberals, inexperienced college kids, and angry, power-hungry, ignorant blacks to sweep their illegal candidate into the White House.

Now he is acting to destroy America from within. He plans to disarm the citizenry, nationalize our industry, and align the US with Venezuela, Iran, and other outlaw states.

He may even be the Antichrist who is prophecied to appear in these Last Days.

That, of course, is the most extreme view. There are less extreme views that incorporate only parts of that scenario.

But you can see how these various dust-ups -- over Obama's education in Indonesia, alleged overseas campaign contributions, "palling around with terrorists", corruption within ACORN (which Glenn Beck still covers), accusations of being a Socialist, fears of looming restrictions on firearms (there's actually a bullet shortage around here b/c so many people are hording ammunition), the "friendly" photographs with Chavez, and the birth certificate hysteria -- fit into a larger picture, and why these particular theories have gained such traction.

From the outside, it may seem curious that such a fuss is being made over the birth certificate issue. But from inside that world-view, a failure to recognize the true significance of Obama's birth is a sign of gullibility at best, and complicity in the destruction of America at worst.

Then there are the bigots who just hope he's not a citizen so they can get that **** ****** out of the White House.

 

[rwguinn]

Well, you are free to disagree. As someone who has consulted for both the RNC and DNC I know how they both operate, and the RNC has failed to catch up on how to properly spin and propagandize internet rumors since 2004.

Ah.
So what you are saying is that Democratic Party is prone to lying, cheating, and whatever it takes to win.
Next thing you know, they'll deny eating babies and being under control of the NWO

 

[elbe]

I wonder how many of the don't knows are people who really don't know any more about the topic than that certain news personalities say there are "questions".

 

[Monketi Ghost]

How much is this like the "Bush never properly served" in the Guard thing?

I recall being sort of interested in anything that could prove W did the time he was supposed to... does that make me a CT nut as well, by the same brush so to speak? I wonder. Maybe we all get our time at the plate with a CT bat.

 

[Bob Klase]

OK, let's have a look at Google Trends.

[qimg]http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2290/mccainobama.png[/qimg]

The red line is for the words "Obama" and "certificate", the blue line for "McCain" and "Panama".

Doesn't really mean much. If you check "McCain" and "citizen", or "McCain" and "born", or "McCain" and "certificate" you'll get a result similar to "Obama" and "certificate".

 

[zaphod2016]

Southerners are generally stupid.

My credentials: born & raised in Chicago, educated in NY, now living in Florida in a "red" district.

Are Floridians dumb compared to New Yorkers? It depends on the subject. If we're talking about finance, or history, or science, usually the native Floridian is at a disadvantage. But if talking about sports, or fish or "how-to" (i.e. how to do an oil change, install a door, clean a pool) native Floridians are quite intelligent, and surprisingly good teachers.

How does this relate to "birther" statistics?

1. Most people here in Florida treat politics more like a religion than an opinion. We have many "identity Republicans" here, people who describe themselves as pro-GOP, but rarely vote. Not unlike the numerous "Christians" around me who rarely go to church.

2. Racism is definitely more prevalent down here; the N-bomb is dropped often, and without a stigma. Up north, I never heard the N-word unless it was uttered by a black person. In the defense of my redneck friends, I think they are "Identity whites" moreso than genuine racists. For example, whenever I ask: "why do you hate 'those ni**ers'?" I usually get vague rants about crime and welfare. When I remind them that whites use more welfare in our county than blacks, it is not uncommon to hear: "well, they is ni**ers too!" In other words, it is a socio-economic prejudice, more so than a genuine racism.

3. Up north in NY, I almost NEVER heard anyone use the N-word, or speak specifically against blacks. However, segregation was the norm- blacks and browns had "their" neighborhoods, and whites had "our" neighborhoods. There is a certain degree of hypocrisy in regards to race in NY- most whites "love the blacks"; they just don't to live near them.

4. Down in Florida, the neighborhood is much more integrated, which was a shock to me. If you checkout any of the parks along the beach today, you will see a variety of people all sharing the barbecue pits and volleyball courts. And after a few beers, they will all start ranting about politics. What I prefer about the south is, they tell you to your face, not your back, what they really think- and the opinions are not always what you would assume. Most blacks are still very pro-Obama, but more and more are becoming vocally critical. The latinos tend to be very anti-immigration, very pro-GOP. The Jews are divided about 50/50, with half being hardcore conservative, and the other half, bleeding-heart liberal. The young whites (under 25) are still pro-Obama, the old whites (65+) are very, very, very anti-Obama (and a few "Birthers" are among them). Just some unscientific observations from my own neighborhood walks.**

A final point on our local Birthers: I often say to them something along the lines of- "Look, I hate Obama too. I'm totally in favor of being anti-Obama. I just think you need to hate him for better reasons."

This grabs their attention. And after rattling off a laundry list of my own anti-Obama grudges, the listener will usually nod and concede that his color, and nation of origin, are really not the issue at all. My theory is that a lot of non-Birthers accept it, or at least go along with it, simply because the anti-Obamas have been a small minority for the past 6 months, and they are eager to make any allies they can (they have been very lonely).

Try it yourself: the next time you encounter a Birther, say something like: "Well, I concede he was born in Hawaii, but I still oppose the 8% penalty against uninsured small business with payroll over $400k. I think this Obama guy is overrated." If they continue on about the "negro muslim antichrist", you are wasting your time. But most *rational* or *semi-rational* people are quick to admit that these are not the best arguments against our new President.

** EDIT- I don't live in a multiracial utopia. 90% of the town is white, or at least, looks white to me. However, the difference between here and NY is that the houses are much more affordable, so the 10% non-white population lives right here with the rest of us, whereas in NY, my non-white friends usually lived in another neighborhood. I consider myself a "mutt" so I tend to get along with everybody. Plus, I'm a crazy magnet.

 

[LightinDarkness]

OK, let's have a look at Google Trends.

The red line is for the words "Obama" and "certificate", the blue line for "McCain" and "Panama".

Google trends actually proves my point, particularly since as both lines show Obama's only spiked toward the end of 2008 - when he had won the election. If McCain had won the election, hate inspired Democrats would be fueling McCain birtherism. As he lost, it didn't occur.

 

[elbe]

Doesn't really mean much. If you check "McCain" and "citizen", or "McCain" and "born", or "McCain" and "certificate" you'll get a result similar to "Obama" and "certificate".

How about "mccain panama" versus "obama kenya" to try to minimize pages about Obama's "illegitimacy" that mention McCain.

ETA: I didn't even notice that line going back to 2004.

 

[LightinDarkness]

How about "mccain panama" versus "obama kenya" to try to minimize pages about Obama's "illegitimacy" that mention McCain.
.

Those terms don't work quite as well because it could easily include pages about Obama's trips to Kenya. However, the same rough pattern still emerges - although Obama's birtherism was slightly higher both of them were very similar until late in 2008 when he won the election. Obamas goes back to 2004 because that was when he was first mentioned as a possible candidate due to his popular DNC convention speech.

Google searches are not a good measure of of this to begin with, since most CTs don't google search for this stuff but find it on their own sites like ATS on the front page. Google searching alone is only a proxy for web based infamy and not popularity nor belief.

 

[elbe]

Those terms don't work quite as well because it could easily include pages about Obama's trips to Kenya. However, the same rough pattern still emerges - although Obama's birtherism was slightly higher both of them were very similar until late in 2008 when he won the election. Obamas goes back to 2004 because that was when he was first mentioned as a possible candidate due to his popular DNC convention speech.

Google searches are not a good measure of of this to begin with, since most CTs don't google search for this stuff but find it on their own sites like ATS on the front page. Google searching alone is only a proxy for web based infamy and not popularity nor belief.

The idea was that a birther page about either politician would, likely, mention the place where it is claimed they are from (or why it was "illegal" for them to be president). I think "obama kenya" is similar enough to "obama certificate" to guess that most of those are probably birther pages.

While I agree google trends only gives you a surface level interest, I think, in this case, it is more, I don't know, useful than the CT sites. There will always be the crazy people who relegate themselves to some odd corner of the interweb, I think the birther craze is more likely to get followers who may not already be a part of a CTer community. But that's just my guess.

ETA:

both of them were very similar until late in 2008

Both Obama and McCain? Where do you see them being similar in those searches?

 

[Brainster]

Does anybody else find the other question asked in the poll very curious?

QUESTION: Do you believe that America and Africa were once part of the same continent?

Apparently 58% of Americans are Pangaea deniers. Any possibility that by throwing a question about Africa in there that Kos was trying to seed the issue of where Obama was born?

 

[LightinDarkness]

Does anybody else find the other question asked in the poll very curious?



Apparently 58% of Americans are Pangaea deniers. Any possibility that by throwing a question about Africa in there that Kos was trying to seed the issue of where Obama was born?

I did not notice this - great find! Again, I can't believe a professional polling firm would allow questions like this - especially one after another. This is definitely question seeding.

Oh, and elbe: Im think you can see both of these items generated few google searches until late 2008, when the diverge was - again - when Obama won. Google analysitcs doesn't do correlation coefficients, so I am just looking at the lines. When you use similar terms, as was mentioned before, like Mccain certificate and Obama certificate, it gets even closer.

 

[elbe]

That is an odd question, it makes me wonder if they were going for some sort of education level of the pollee. Did they ask the questions in the order presented on the Daily Kos site?

 

[GreyICE]

Are there corresponding polls from the Bush era about the number of people who thought he stole the election? I would be interested to know whether the Birthers have eclipsed that CT.

So being queasy about a 5-4 decision is the same as having doubts about a case that has either been thrown out of court or unanimously decided against the defendant. Hey, any Republicans have a problem with Roe vs. Wade? That's the same thing as being a birther by gtc logic (actually RvW was 7-2, making them much crazier).

 

[Walter Ego]

My credentials: born & raised in Chicago, educated in NY, now living in Florida in a "red" district.

Are Floridians dumb compared to New Yorkers? It depends on the subject. If we're talking about finance, or history, or science, usually the native Floridian is at a disadvantage. But if talking about sports, or fish or "how-to" (i.e. how to do an oil change, install a door, clean a pool) native Floridians are quite intelligent, and surprisingly good teachers.

How does this relate to "birther" statistics?

1. Most people here in Florida treat politics more like a religion than an opinion. We have many "identity Republicans" here, people who describe themselves as pro-GOP, but rarely vote. Not unlike the numerous "Christians" around me who rarely go to church.

2. Racism is definitely more prevalent down here; the N-bomb is dropped often, and without a stigma. Up north, I never heard the N-word unless it was uttered by a black person. In the defense of my redneck friends, I think they are "Identity whites" moreso than genuine racists. For example, whenever I ask: "why do you hate 'those ni**ers'?" I usually get vague rants about crime and welfare. When I remind them that whites use more welfare in our county than blacks, it is not uncommon to hear: "well, they is ni**ers too!" In other words, it is a socio-economic prejudice, more so than a genuine racism.

3. Up north in NY, I almost NEVER heard anyone use the N-word, or speak specifically against blacks. However, segregation was the norm- blacks and browns had "their" neighborhoods, and whites had "our" neighborhoods. There is a certain degree of hypocrisy in regards to race in NY- most whites "love the blacks"; they just don't to live near them.

4. Down in Florida, the neighborhood is much more integrated, which was a shock to me. If you checkout any of the parks along the beach today, you will see a variety of people all sharing the barbecue pits and volleyball courts. And after a few beers, they will all start ranting about politics. What I prefer about the south is, they tell you to your face, not your back, what they really think- and the opinions are not always what you would assume. Most blacks are still very pro-Obama, but more and more are becoming vocally critical. The latinos tend to be very anti-immigration, very pro-GOP. The Jews are divided about 50/50, with half being hardcore conservative, and the other half, bleeding-heart liberal. The young whites (under 25) are still pro-Obama, the old whites (65+) are very, very, very anti-Obama (and a few "Birthers" are among them). Just some unscientific observations from my own neighborhood walks.**

A final point on our local Birthers: I often say to them something along the lines of- "Look, I hate Obama too. I'm totally in favor of being anti-Obama. I just think you need to hate him for better reasons."

This grabs their attention. And after rattling off a laundry list of my own anti-Obama grudges, the listener will usually nod and concede that his color, and nation of origin, are really not the issue at all. My theory is that a lot of non-Birthers accept it, or at least go along with it, simply because the anti-Obamas have been a small minority for the past 6 months, and they are eager to make any allies they can (they have been very lonely).

Try it yourself: the next time you encounter a Birther, say something like: "Well, I concede he was born in Hawaii, but I still oppose the 8% penalty against uninsured small business with payroll over $400k. I think this Obama guy is overrated." If they continue on about the "negro muslim antichrist", you are wasting your time. But most *rational* or *semi-rational* people are quick to admit that these are not the best arguments against our new President.

** EDIT- I don't live in a multiracial utopia. 90% of the town is white, or at least, looks white to me. However, the difference between here and NY is that the houses are much more affordable, so the 10% non-white population lives right here with the rest of us, whereas in NY, my non-white friends usually lived in another neighborhood. I consider myself a "mutt" so I tend to get along with everybody. Plus, I'm a crazy magnet.

The bottom line is that a lot of people, North, South, East and West and cannot accept the legitimacy of a black man being the President of the United States. It's a simple as that.

 

[Thunder]

The bottom line is that a lot of people, North, South, East and West and cannot accept the legitimacy of a black man being the President of the United States. It's a simple as that.

Was Hawaii a state in 1961?????

Hmmmmm....

 

[Dr Adequate]

Google trends actually proves my point, particularly since as both lines show Obama's only spiked toward the end of 2008 - when he had won the election.

Oh, and elbe: Im think you can see both of these items generated few google searches until late 2008, when the diverge was - again - when Obama won.

And there was I thinking the election was in November.

Look at the charts. The big spike is before the election. Indeed, on elbe's chart, the point marked "A" is November 5th, as you can see by using google trends yourself for the same terms. Birthism increased before the election, reached its fever pitch immediately before the election, and dropped off precipitously after the election when smearing Obama became kinda pointless.

Meanwhile you maintain that the supposed vast crowd of potential McCain Birthers wouldn't have become really active 'til after the election, though you do not explain why.

Is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Does anybody else find the other question asked in the poll very curious?

Apparently 58% of Americans are Pangaea deniers. Any possibility that by throwing a question about Africa in there that Kos was trying to seed the issue of where Obama was born?

I don't think they're that clever. But it might have had an "anchoring effect".

As I say, there should be more polls soon on Birthism, which I presume will not also address the great controversy over whether Jesus hates plate tectonics.