MarkyX
Master Poster
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,157
A characteristic of a good writer is conveying a message with as little words as possible. I'll let you guess how I feel about this guy.
I really don't understand these people. They expect me to argue with them when they completely ignore any information I present. He gives me a list "claims" he has made, most of them already debunked in Screw Loose Change, and expects me to refute them again. They have been debunked already, so the only thing I can do is give the same answer, which he will completely ignore and repeat his claim again while claiming victory.
This is pretty much the reason why I don't usually respond to idiotic emails or try to debate them. Anyone who looks at the information available, whether it's PM, Gravy's Guide, SCL blog, or 9/11 myths, and simply ignores them is a lost cause. He isn't going to change his mind not because there is facts behind, but like a religion cult, he wants to believe them. Actually, let me rephrase that: He must believe them
I can't believe this guy spends so much time over a debunker, or the rest of the movement on other debunkers like Popular Mechanics, when they are supposed be out saving the world.
I spent more time to assess the validity of your rebuttal to Loose Change than you did before your simplistic and largely uninformed criticisms were leveled, (three minutes into the film). To this seasoned student of history, and especially, a student of the realistic, un sanitized version of United States history, I find your willingness to dismiss prime suspects to be misguided, at best. At worst, your obvious patriotism, admirable on it's face, is fully steeped in what I know to be a massive and continuing rouse.
Dismissing, from the opening, these fundamental and absolutely central points of the documentary reveals a mind set not grounded in reality.
Seldom does any creator of murder mysteries or documentaries lay out the final scene in the opening minutes. Loose change, like any compelling presentation, lays the groundwork and sets the stage for the crux. These examples are factual and all clearly support the means by which our government, throughout the 20th century, lied, and continue to lie to the American public in pursuit of ulterior motives, often sinister. The bay of Tonkin 'incident' comes to mind. Do you truly believe that the US, through executive order and military action, didn't force Japan's hand in a pre emptive attack? Do you actually believe that is was a surprise? The Lusitania, an accident? Remember the Maine?
To sum up the most painfully obvious reality about government actions, especially the declaration of war, the public must be on board - and mad as hell.
I would venture to say that you have little, if any, clue of well verified United States CIA and black-ops 'endeavors' around the world since the end of WWII. If you did, a number of your assertions in the 'rebuttal' would be as absurd to you as they are laughable to me.
The PNAC document cannot be more accurately summarized in it's assertion that a "Pearl Harbor incident", would be the key to circumvent all other methods to re-assert America's dominance in the world. The participants in the creation of this document are of fundamental importance.
The widespread use of terms such as: military preeminence, aggressively, exploit, weapons and experiment as to how wars are fought. Yeah, those are benign terms not reflecting the above statement.
And in one startling instance, you actually quote bin Laden as a credible rebuttal to your assertion that his visit to a Dubai hospital was false? Incredible. Did you take note of any of the repeated claims by bin Laden in the media that his best estimation regarding the 911 attacks was that a rogue element, either inside or outside the US government, planned and carried it out in pursuit of selfish motives?
Why, in your estimation, are the vast numbers of relevant US agencies so secretive about a litany of key issues and failures leading up to and surrounding the 911 attacks not related to national security, as claimed?
Why were there so many now confirmed and crucial lies from so many levels of NORAD and the FAA? Why did Bush and cronies fight so vigorously to prevent an investigation into the largest mass murder and terrorist attack on the United States, (411 days, in fact)?
Why was the lead council for the 'investigation' a deeply entrenched, seasoned Bush administration hack and known neo con?
Why are the members of the 911 Commission now largely in agreement that, "We were set up from the beginning to fail"? $60 million to wind up with a Clinton sex scandal, and $15 million to investigate the largest crime in American history? Are perspective and proportion of any value to you?
Failed, five layered pentagon missile defense systems? A vanishing, thirty-seven story building at 19 Rector Avenue, NYC? Unexplained flash explosions by flights 11 and 175 at point of contact with the buildings? A charcoal gray commercial airliner in broad daylight? 'Nose out' impact of flight 175? Mysterious 'black out' at moment of impact from four 'independent' live television networks? Large and numerous puddles of once-molten steel throughout the bases of three skyscrapers?
Don't get me started on Cheney. Means, motive and opportunity combined with unique, entrenched know how, well established connections and sheer power of his position make him suspect #1. Truly studying and understanding his philosophy, secretive methodology and long demonstrated contempt for democratic due process qualifies him for the 'Hitler wanna be of the century' trophy.
If you question it, you haven't bothered to put his very long and sorted history to task. This is the darkest of men, in who's heart and soul resides unadulterated, remorseless evil.
OK... on a lighter note.
I am convinced that you exemplify the American citizen that powerful and key members of the US government reached and duped, en masse, just as planned. After all, they're the government, they can.
I am further convinced that you are not paying attention.
1) The most extensive, best trained and well equipped air defense organization in the history of the world, charged with defending the most sensitive airspace in the world utterly failed. Four times. (Regarding your interpretation of defense readiness, in the previous year, NORAD had intercepted 67 flights with abnormal behavior. Average time of intercept: 16 minutes.)
2) Why did the 911 commission make the startling claim that "the source of the funding for the operation resulting in the 911 attacks was, essentially, of no consequence?" I can think of few aspects of any crime more important.
3) Why was the key testimony by Norman Mineta, the head of the FAA, asserting that Cheney was in the PEOC bunker, giving critical orders, at 9:20 AM, (contrary to Cheney's claim of 9:58 AM), on 911 completely omitted in the commission's report? An oversight?
4) Why has no news organization, or the 911 Commission, ever mentioned that the security company for American Airlines at Boston's Logan International Airport, in addition to both towers of the World Trade Center was headed by the president's brother Marvin Bush?
5) Of the two airliners that struck the towers, three of the 'black boxes' were located and whisked off. To where? By whom? Why is this fact being denied by a number of United States agencies or not being addressed by many more? No mention in the commission's report. An oversight?
6) Why has no news organization, not the commission, of course, ever mentioned that both airliners struck each tower in a floor with heavily secured computer centers? Centers that had received extensive 'improvements' requiring major, (and recent), equipment installations? A coincidence?
7) Regarding the Soloman Brothers Building, WTC7, all four corners and every steel vertical column throughout this 47 story building collapsed simultaneously. All four corners of the building. All vertical supports - at the same moment. And the entire structure collapses at free-fall speed into it's basement. Maybe I should open my own demolition company with a box of matches and some diesel fuel in hand. The 911 commission stated that: "We don't know why or how Building #7 of the World Trade Center collapsed". This is equivalent to the Warren commission's key claim that the fatal shot to Kennedy's head was from the rear in order to make the grand lie work. And it still largely works over forty years later.
8) Why has no news organization or the 911 commission ever mentioned that the World Trade Center towers experienced a scheduled, yet unprecedented power interruption, (disabling all security features including the network of cameras), most of the weekend preceding the attacks? Or that visitors to, and long time employees in both of the towers heard unusual, pronounced and ongoing construction noises throughout the weeks preceding the attacks?
9) Why was not a single independent analysis regarding the collapse of any of the WTC buildings not performed? The steel removed and sold, (overseas), with unprecedented haste?
10) What is fueling and sustaining yellow hot fires, (not merely red hot), in the northeast corner of the south tower? Flight 175 had struck over 45 minutes earlier, burning 95% of it's fuel within 20 seconds of impact. Carpet? Drapes? Office furniture or computer equipment?
These are but 10 randomly selected, and perfectly valid queries among a list of more than 200 such valid questions that remain un addressed and ignored by the entire upper power structure of both government and media, for now, over six years.
Paying attention to all the matters that any second-rate investigator would pursue in getting to the truth in a second rate murder case. But not the wealthiest, most powerful civilization in human history regarding the events on a single day that changed the world and the way nations declare and engage in illegal wars.
Asking questions is unpatriotic now. And doubting the grand lie is un-American. And my love for my country has become a deep suspicion and fear of my government.
I pose this central question to you: What has your government in general, and the Bush administration in particular, ever told you regarding any important matter, that didn't later reveal itself as a distortion, outright lie or reversal?
Sometimes, long before you know if he did it or not, you must take a long, hard look into the killer's eyes, and study his character, his nature, his motives and his capabilities.
And that is precisely why I believe in my heart what I do.
Most sincerely... Michael McCoy
"The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from his government." Thomas Paine
My reply:
Lying yourself to present an argument is exactly the reason why your movement is considered a joke. You actually buy into the missile pod theory and molten steel? Talk about unoriginal.
Your arguments are nothing new.
Very near, indeed, to what I expected.
My singular movement regards a vigorous quest for the truth, regardless of it's smell. Living a lie offends me. Loyalty to anyone or thing through deception is fake.
My loyalty is not one-sided. And my government has failed. Miserably. And repeatedly.
Through American eyes, America is great. What a surprise. Nearly one in four voting age Americans continue to believe that Iraq was involved in the attacks of 911. Need I say more?
I'd wager that you have an explanation/excuse for explosions at the point of contact between an aircraft and a building. I'd also wager that it's government approved.
Your obvious obliviousness, even disinterest in a rich history of un-homogenized US government actions is shameful, and for that very reason, qualifies you for an immediate stipend from your masters.
However, this key absence of overview and perspective, along with the patriotism that blinds you to a virtual ocean, a stunning sequence of inconsistencies, coincidences, distortions and lies of substance surrounding the attacks, renders you soundly unqualified to debunk any hypothesis or theory regarding any covert actions embarked upon by your government, large or small - past, present or future.
Of course my argument isn't new. I never made that claim. What could be new about a well founded, well funded, well-rehearsed government sponsored conspiracy with the highest stakes on the planet at risk? They're top players within the government with unrestrained powers and control of information. You and I are not. With masterful use of plausible deniability, they don't want you to know. That's why you don't. And I can assure you, you never will.
My reply:
So instead of coming up with physical evidence and scientific investigation, you rely on simple speculations and assumptions while expecting me to magically connect the dots? This is a trait of someone who wants to gossip, not a investigator.
If you have all the evidence, bring it to the courts and proper authorities. Otherwise, don't waste your time trying to attack the messenger. You talk about the US government is corrupted and evil, but you devout your time and effort on someone who just slapped a bunch of subtitles over a mediocre internet video.
Congrats, you're a hero.
Simple speculations and assumptions? Clearly absurd. Are you paying attention?
I'll address any valid point. Should you feel compelled to condescend in order to validate your position by dismissing and/or ignoring the crux of my case, I'll likely, and soon, loose interest.
That's likely your safest course. I know when I'm not being heard. I know when to move on.
Physical evidence? Ignored only with due diligence, great prejudice and patriotism born of obfuscation. Scientific evidence? More of that shortly. Connecting dots has nothing to do with mysticism or sleight of hand.
Here's a touch of science: "Patriotism, suppressed reality, and illusion are inexorably linked." Benjamin Franklin
I did not, nor do I now claim to have "all the evidence". Those with compelling, realistic evidence are rebuffed by a systemic fear of being on the wrong bandwagon at the wrong time over the wrong issue. Those without fear are halted by the partisan judicial machine at every venue and at every level. Strong deterrence is built in, in questioning government dogma, for this particularly risky endeavor curtails or even destroys tenures and careers given the current political climate.
Read that again, as I suspect strongly that you haven't examined the words, as in my two previous posts. And like you, words are all that I have to offer.
Observe the unwillingness of ninety-nine and two thirds of a percent of congressional members to actually examine the documents making the case for WMD, Iraq/al Qaeda connections and all the 'immediate, impending and mushroom clouds over American cities' drone infecting the US airwaves' in observance of prevalent political winds in the US march to war in 2002/2003 America. Not one Congressional member read the NIE, the DIA assessment, the NRO report, the Naval Intelligence Foreign Threat Evaluation, and in fact, the assessments of an additional twenty three US intelligence gathering and evaluation agencies, save Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia. The CIA asserted that the 'threats' were a slam dunk. Welcome to pre-war America. Welcome to unabridged US history.
Amazing that even the vast majority of the UN membership, largely a US puppet, didn't buy it.
But after the numbers came in, the 'US leadership was confident.
After the invasion, when the 'solid myriad of claims' were eventually proven to be a sham, and too late to turn back or admit a mistake, suddenly, we Americans were remarkably and deeply concerned with the freedom and well being of 'those poor Iraqi citizens'.
I promptly visited the toilet and threw up.
Soon after, CIA director George Tenet resigned, and promptly received the Presidential Medal of Freedom directly from President George W Bush.
And here am I, a Vietnam era veteran, in the mid 70's ready and willing to 'fight' for my country and our freedom. And Mr Tenet receiving a Medal of Honor. I remember throwing up again somewhere, probably without a visit to the toilet.
I might have thought of George Bush's silver spoon National Guard service in the late 60's. Awol fully a third of the time, absent when drug tests were imminent, then bailed out by Bush H. W. Again. Or Cheney's five draft deferments, quoting on record that, "I had different priorities and other pursuits other than going into combat."
I was tired of throwing up by that time.
Plausible deniability and mob mentality. Brings a tear to my eye when the Star Spangled Banner is playing in the background. Add the waving Stars and Stripes in the wind as the visual aspect. Pretty lies, despite window dressing, are still lies.
I couldn't help noticing that you have addressed but few of the numerous specifics that I have put forth, one of which, the 'missile pods' theory, which I did not allege. Explosions at points of aircraft to building are undeniable, missile pods are a matter of perspective and leaps of reasoning that I avoid. Strenuously.
On their own, these unmistakable flashes - nearly the diameter of the fuselage of the aircraft(s) - are among the first of countless others in a vast array of bizarre anomalies, contradictions and smoking guns that have been deemed non-issues, largely due to key official silence and media fear and /or complacency. From the logical human power of reasoning and overview, both aircraft demonstrating this heretofore trait is dismissed, out of hand.
Remarkable and telling. And another piece in an extensive, often scientifically impossible sequence of events, including unfathomable ineptitude and utter failure on the part of the highest tier of heavily touted, self-professed professionals on planet earth.
Like I said previously, we zany conspiracy nuts are pointedly unpatriotic, un American and even treasonous, depending on how close to the crux one of us wanders to a key trigger that might lead to an explosion. An explosion of an irreversible, potentially deadly unraveling leading to a landslide of exposure.
Now, about the science. My physical and scientific evidentiary assertions are, indeed, put forth in immense detail by seasoned pilots, noted architects, structural engineers, physicists in a variety of disciplines, seismologists, nuclear engineers, and those bothersome folks with undeniable historic perspective. The uncorrupted observers and understanding of human nature. From the first caveman clubbing his adversary over the head in quest for power, to Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great, Napoleon and the great US Generals and Commanders in Chief.
You actually do seem oblivious to ulterior motives of groups of like minded men in positions of immense power and virtually devoid of accountability. By definition, government.
I have realized that your mindset is among those I encounter from time to time, and that is an overall approach to a 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence' mentality.
This flawed quest for truth relies heavily on the 'what can't be found isn't there' approach and conclusions. Which is patently absurd throughout the history of human interaction, crimes and especially the United States' march to war(s).
You haven't addressed any of the myriad of compelling aspects of the big picture that I have postulated and I won't repeat them, as I seriously doubt that you have pondered them in the larger framework and context of the events leading to, occurring on, and post 9/11/01.
More to the point: Are you actually of the impression that Presidents and Prime Ministers are the persons dictating just how we, the masses, lead and live our lives?
If you believe that, you shall be of illusion until the end.
Michael
"No blinder is the man refusing to see".... unknown author
I really don't understand these people. They expect me to argue with them when they completely ignore any information I present. He gives me a list "claims" he has made, most of them already debunked in Screw Loose Change, and expects me to refute them again. They have been debunked already, so the only thing I can do is give the same answer, which he will completely ignore and repeat his claim again while claiming victory.
This is pretty much the reason why I don't usually respond to idiotic emails or try to debate them. Anyone who looks at the information available, whether it's PM, Gravy's Guide, SCL blog, or 9/11 myths, and simply ignores them is a lost cause. He isn't going to change his mind not because there is facts behind, but like a religion cult, he wants to believe them. Actually, let me rephrase that: He must believe them
I can't believe this guy spends so much time over a debunker, or the rest of the movement on other debunkers like Popular Mechanics, when they are supposed be out saving the world.
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Actually reading that again he just asked a bunch of stupid question and proved nothing.
