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Mosque/Mohamed picture

Jonnyclueless said:
But the people against the "Mosque" feel that it IS intentionally offensive. Their problem is that they think the people building it ARE trying to be offensive but won't admit it. Their gripe is that the people building it are trying to rub their religion and 9/11 in the faces of those who died.

I am not saying they are justified in their belief, but from their position it would be the same thing.
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Yes, it would be the same thing from their perspective. The difference is that their perspective is wrong. Yes, that can happen.
 
Jonnyclueless said:
But the people against the "Mosque" feel that it IS intentionally offensive. Their problem is that they think the people building it ARE trying to be offensive but won't admit it. Their gripe is that the people building it are trying to rub their religion and 9/11 in the faces of those who died.
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picture.php
 
That whole image of Mohammad nonsense is a specific outrage exploited by the extremists. There are plenty of images of Mohammad depicted by Muslims themselves throughout history.
 
JihadJane said:
Playschool politics in the USA! Must mean the economy is collapsing...
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Collapsing? Seriously? :rolleyes:

I'm getting ready to give annual flu shots and a couple employers have already called to say they have hired new people this year so I should order more vaccine. I give city hep B shots and they've been adding new hires for months.
 
tsig said:
Well I take offense at you posting at JREF. Any further post by you will be taken by me as done "for the express purpose of offense". :(
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pipelineaudio said:
Seconded. Freedom of speech means freedom to be offended as well
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To equate something done as an expression of religious freedom which bigots have decided is offensive, but is otherwise innocuous, with something done for the specific and sole purpose of causing offense is at best intellectually dishonest.

At worst it's completely idiotic.
 
tsig said:
Would it be OK if someone exercised their freedom of speech and put a large picture of Mohamed right across the street from the proposed NYC mosque?
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No it wouldn't, because rules (and taxes) are different for religions. You can insult your neighbor's nose, but not his religion. All types of disrespect are not equal, or how did Orwell put it....?
 
Cl1mh4224rd said:
I'm OK with the community center (it's not a mosque, folks) and while there's no legal (potentially) or constitutional reason to deny the hanging of such a sign, I would probably be against it.

Why? This:




Intentionally offending a group that is not intentionally offending you is not a very good way to make a point, in my opinion.
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How do you know that the purpose of the mosque is to not intentionally offend?

How do you know that the intention of the picture is to offend?

Should we limit our freedom of speech just because someone may be offended?

Maybe the purpose of the picture would be to test whether Islam respects freedom of speech.
 
pipelineaudio said:
Seconded. Freedom of speech means freedom to be offended as well
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Yes.
Freedoms must be exercised or they are meaningless. If we start self censoring ourselves because someone might take offense then we'll have voluntarily ceded our freedom.
 
johnny karate said:
To equate something done as an expression of religious freedom which bigots have decided is offensive, but is otherwise innocuous, with something done for the specific and sole purpose of causing offense is at best intellectually dishonest. At worst it's completely idiotic.
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So anyone who disagrees with you is bigoted, intellectually dishonest and an idiot.

Are you posting just for the express purpose of giving offense?


Poison the well much?
 
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tsig said:
How do you know that the purpose of the mosque is to not intentionally offend?
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The proposed Muslim community center serves many practical, clearly non-offensive purposes.

tsig said:
How do you know that the intention of the picture is to offend?
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What practical, clearly non-offensive purposes would it serve?

tsig said:
Should we limit our freedom of speech just because someone may be offended?
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No.

tsig said:
Maybe the purpose of the picture would be to test whether Islam respects freedom of speech.
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Why is this test necessary? Should we also test Christianity and Judaism by intentionally offending people of those faiths? Besides which, the only body that need "respect freedom of speech" is the U.S. government. Even if the Muslim community responded with outrage at your idea and demanded the picture be taken down, hypocrisy is not a loophole that allows one's Constitutional rights to be revoked.
 
tsig said:
So anyone who disagrees with you is bigoted, intellectually dishonest and an idiot.
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This topic has roughly 7 or 8 active threads going right now, and I've yet to see a reason for opposing Park51 that wasn't rooted in bigotry.

Care to offer one?

And as far as the charges of intellectual dishonesty and idiocy; I've made my case. Feel free to refute it.
 
johnny karate said:
This topic has roughly 7 or 8 active threads going right now, and I've yet to see a reason for opposing Park51 that wasn't rooted in bigotry.

Care to offer one?

And as far as the charges of intellectual dishonesty and idiocy; I've made my case. Feel free to refute it.
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So let's get this straight. Your telling me I or anyone who disagrees with the placement of the mosque is an intellectually dishonest, bigoted idiot.


There are limitations on freedom of speech (yelling fire in a theater) I feel the construction of the mosque is the religious equivalent.
 
tsig said:
So let's get this straight. Your telling me I or anyone who disagrees with the placement of the mosque is an intellectually dishonest, bigoted idiot.
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No, that's not what I stated. My charges of idiocy and intellectual dishonesty were towards a particular argument that was being made. And I stand by them.

However, I do think anyone who opposes Park51 is either a bigot or capitulating to bigots.

If you can provide a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51, I would genuinely be curious to see it.

tsig said:
There are limitations on freedom of speech (yelling fire in a theater) I feel the construction of the mosque is the religious equivalent.
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Putting aside the fact that limits on freedom of speech are both rooted in common sense and have legal precedent (thus rendering your "yelling fire in a theater" comparison moot), why do you feel the construction of this Muslim community center exceeds the limitations of freedom of religion?
 
johnny karate said:
No, that's not what I stated. My charges of idiocy and intellectual dishonesty were towards a particular argument that was being made. And I stand by them.

However, I do think anyone who opposes Park51 is either a bigot or capitulating to bigots.

If you can provide a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51, I would genuinely be curious to see it.



Putting aside the fact that limits on freedom of speech are both rooted in common sense and have legal precedent (thus rendering your "yelling fire in a theater" comparison moot), why do you feel the construction of this Muslim community center exceeds the limitations of freedom of religion?
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Because it's needlessly provocative. Having all of NYC to chose from why did they pick this site?


I do think anyone who opposes Park51 is either a bigot or capitulating to bigots

This statement is a direct personal assault on me since I am arguing against the mosque. Will you retract it?
 
tsig said:
Because it's needlessly provocative. Having all of NYC to chose from why did they pick this site?


I do think anyone who opposes Park51 is either a bigot or capitulating to bigots

This statement is a direct personal assault on me since I am arguing against the mosque. Will you retract it?
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...you oppose the mosque? Took you a while to mention that in your thread. Why didn't you just say so in your OP instead of trying to be cryptic? Why did you throw out questions in post 50, get answers in post 53, and completely ignore them?

It has been universally accepted in this thread that if someone exercised their freedom of speech and put a large picture of Mohamed right across the street from the proposed NYC mosque, this would be okay. I take it that you hold the same stance with the mosque: you oppose it but are okay with it being built?

And I think that it is extremely clear that the mosque is not intended to be intentionally provocative. If you think it is: then stop asking questions and playing silly games and trying to trap other posters into indirectly calling you a bigot and lay out your case. Show us what evidence you have and how you came to your conclusion.
 
tsig said:
Because it's needlessly provocative. Having all of NYC to chose from why did they pick this site?
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What about it is provocative? Is is the swimming pool? The basketball court? Perhaps it's the art studio? Or is it the childcare center you object to?

What specifically about Park51 is provocative?

tsig said:
This statement is a direct personal assault on me since I am arguing against the mosque. Will you retract it?
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Why would I retract something you seem unable or unwilling to refute? My statement remains unchallenged. And until such time, I stand by it.
 
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