Morsi Ousted By The Army...

[CapelDodger]

In any case, I would not consider the democracy in Egypt to yet be fully established.

In an odd way it can only really be established by the military, explicitly. Standing apart as they did simply delayed matters while the first-draft political process inevitably failed. Now they can hand on the torch of Egyptian nationhood to democracy knowing that the Muslim Brotherhood won't summon up another majority vote for a very long time.

 

[Acleron]

In an odd way it can only really be established by the military, explicitly. Standing apart as they did simply delayed matters while the first-draft political process inevitably failed. Now they can hand on the torch of Egyptian nationhood to democracy knowing that the Muslim Brotherhood won't summon up another majority vote for a very long time.

There is a problem, the opposition to the MB raised a petition of 22M against the 13.2M that voted for them. But if the opposition is as split and disorganised as before, the MB bloc can still be the largest. The opposition should hope they have sufficient time before the next election to form alliances and have a united force. In the meantime the MB seem pretty intent on spilling blood. Another problem they have is the economy, Morsi was never going to cure its problems in a single year, but neither will anybody else. Will the Egyptian population accept democratic rule and a slow change to their personal finances or will they want to overturn the new government in another year?

 

[Chaos]

There is a problem, the opposition to the MB raised a petition of 22M against the 13.2M that voted for them. But if the opposition is as split and disorganised as before, the MB bloc can still be the largest. The opposition should hope they have sufficient time before the next election to form alliances and have a united force. In the meantime the MB seem pretty intent on spilling blood. Another problem they have is the economy, Morsi was never going to cure its problems in a single year, but neither will anybody else. Will the Egyptian population accept democratic rule and a slow change to their personal finances or will they want to overturn the new government in another year?

I think that last one will depend mostly on one question: Will the next government try to fix the ecomony? Or will they transform the country to fit their fundamentalist religious views on how the country´s society should be like, like Mursi did?

For example, I would venture a guess that Copts would be less likely to want to overturn a government that does not support the abduction and forced conversion of Coptic girls, or turn a blind eye towards pogroms against Copts.

And I am sure even a lot of the more secular Muslims would be a lot happier in a country where fanatics cannot simply accost an unmarried couple walking hand in hand in public and hack the guy´s dick off so that he bleeds to death.

 

[Acleron]

I think that last one will depend mostly on one question: Will the next government try to fix the ecomony? Or will they transform the country to fit their fundamentalist religious views on how the country´s society should be like, like Mursi did?

For example, I would venture a guess that Copts would be less likely to want to overturn a government that does not support the abduction and forced conversion of Coptic girls, or turn a blind eye towards pogroms against Copts.

And I am sure even a lot of the more secular Muslims would be a lot happier in a country where fanatics cannot simply accost an unmarried couple walking hand in hand in public and hack the guy´s dick off so that he bleeds to death.

I sincerely hope you are right.

 

[Chaos]

I sincerely hope you are right.

I´ve been in contact with an Egyptian women´s rights activist over the last couple of months, as well as with a number of Copts; one of my co-workers spent some time working in Egypt a couple of years ago and still has contacts there; and even beyond that I´ve been getting some information on Egypt that doesn´t make it into the mass media.

That doesn´t mean I´m a magic authority on the situation in Egypt, though. Morsi´s fall took us - including the aforementioned women´s rights activist, as far as I know - as much by surprise as anyone else.

 

[Acleron]

I´ve been in contact with an Egyptian women´s rights activist over the last couple of months, as well as with a number of Copts; one of my co-workers spent some time working in Egypt a couple of years ago and still has contacts there; and even beyond that I´ve been getting some information on Egypt that doesn´t make it into the mass media.

That doesn´t mean I´m a magic authority on the situation in Egypt, though. Morsi´s fall took us - including the aforementioned women´s rights activist, as far as I know - as much by surprise as anyone else.

Then you give me more hope you are correct.

 

[zeggman]

In the meantime the MB seem pretty intent on spilling blood.

No kidding. Setting fire to a building which contains sleeping children, and shooting those who manage to escape the flames is almost as low as you can go. Almost.

 

[Dragoonster]

Even if every single Egyptian was out in streets protesting, this is still a coup, and democracy has still been upended.

Morsi won a free and fair election. If Egyptians now regret that choice, the proper step is to vote him out next election.

I don't want to hear about "growing pains" or "popular coup" or such BS. Egypt just turned its back on democracy as a political system. No person with a working brain should dispute this.

 

[Checkmite]

Even if every single Egyptian was out in streets protesting, this is still a coup, and democracy has still been upended.

Morsi won a free and fair election. If Egyptians now regret that choice, the proper step is to vote him out next election.

In the US, people have the right to essentially force an early election rather than waiting until the next. I believe Egypt's newest constitution, which evidently was not really democratically drafted, did not permit that eventuality.

 

[Travis]

The Muslim Brotherhood assumed that the election was a one off affair and after they acquired power then democracy could disappear, it had served its purpose. The changes Morsi made to the constitution, the jailing of critics and the closure of non government controlled media outlets were not the behaviour of someone who had any love for democracy.

Jailing critics certainly isn't good but why did he have the authority to do such things in a democracy?

There is a problem, the opposition to the MB raised a petition of 22M against the 13.2M that voted for them. But if the opposition is as split and disorganised as before, the MB bloc can still be the largest. The opposition should hope they have sufficient time before the next election to form alliances and have a united force. In the meantime the MB seem pretty intent on spilling blood. Another problem they have is the economy, Morsi was never going to cure its problems in a single year, but neither will anybody else. Will the Egyptian population accept democratic rule and a slow change to their personal finances or will they want to overturn the new government in another year?

Events up to now certainly don't fill one with hope.

Even if every single Egyptian was out in streets protesting, this is still a coup, and democracy has still been upended.

Morsi won a free and fair election. If Egyptians now regret that choice, the proper step is to vote him out next election.

I don't want to hear about "growing pains" or "popular coup" or such BS. Egypt just turned its back on democracy as a political system. No person with a working brain should dispute this.

It seems a shockingly large number of moderates chose to not participate in the previous election. Why....I can't guess. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

 

[Chaos]

Even if every single Egyptian was out in streets protesting, this is still a coup, and democracy has still been upended.

Morsi won a free and fair election. If Egyptians now regret that choice, the proper step is to vote him out next election.

I don't want to hear about "growing pains" or "popular coup" or such BS. Egypt just turned its back on democracy as a political system. No person with a working brain should dispute this.

Democracy isn´t simply about having an election every couple of years. It is also about not simply single-mindedly forcing your own agenda on everyone and trampling the basic rights (like the right not to have your dick cut off for holding hands with your girlfriend in public) of everyone else. For all, for example, I despise Bush II as a president, even he had some residual respect for the basic rights of those who didn´t vote for him.

If you´d paid the slightest bit of attention to what´s been happening in Egypt over the last year, you´d know that Morsi was the one who turned his back on democracy.

Edited by Lisa Simpson: 

Edited for civility.

 

[MaGZ]

While not wildly in love with the Muslim Bortherhood, this is still a coup by the military 300 arrested, 12 dead so far and likley to rise.

Thanks for your honesty. Check the several Western press reports that use the phrase, “some would describe it as a coup”. It is as if they got the word on high on how to report the story.

 

[MaGZ]

Please cite evidence in this thread that indicates posters' hypocrisy and justifies the insult. I notice that more often than not it's "you people" - conservatives, for lack of a better word - who initiate the ad hominem attacks on this forum. They don't seem to know any other way to argue. Maybe their reasoning skills are so limited that name-calling is the best they can do.

I just want to see more honesty in acknowledging this was a coup and an anti-democratic move. If using the phase “you people” sparks your attention to this hypocrisy then so much the better.

 

[MaGZ]

Part of the problem was that the people thought they had a democracy, Morsi didn't.

What antidemocratic measures did Morsi take to justify a coup? Did he close down newspapers or place his opponents in jail?

 

[MaGZ]

Don't like Morsi, don't like the Moslem Brotherhood....

... but why wouldn't new mass demos by the Mos Bros against the next elected President also be a cue for the military to oust the new incumbent?

Pinball presidencies? Election by force of demo? Election according to the preferences of the military?

I’m sure the military was doing what the United States wanted. I guess they acted too soon when they named the puppet ElBaradei as the next prime minister.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...73378c-e62a-11e2-80eb-3145e2994a55_story.html

 

[MaGZ]

You don't understand the unprecedented scale of the anti-Morsi protests that just happened. The army didn't just cave to a few thousand vocal protesters. We're talking possibly up to a third of the entire population that were in the streets, and while that estimate is certainly on the high end, there were definitely more protesters against Morsi during the last few days than there were against Mubarak a few years ago.

Something colossally drastic would have to happen for the Brotherhood to scrape together even a fraction of those numbers.

And Morsi won with 52% of the vote a year ago.
Bty Obama’s poll numbers are less than 50 now.

 

[MaGZ]

So he wasn't elected?



Considering 50% of Americans hate Obama with a passion that could happen. The other 50% of us that don't hate him would be very saddened if the military just went and did their bidding.

Elections are important. That's why you should both participate in them and put some real thought into who you are voting for. To me this whole mess in Egypt looks like buyers remorse. They will just keep protesting until their favored candidate gets in. At which point the other side protests and gets that guy removed too.

Taking to the streets to demand the military arrest someone that was elected to do their job because he wasn't the candidate you liked just doesn't sound like democracy to me. More of a mobocracy.

I wouldn’t call it buyer’s remorse. Those in the streets, perhaps a third of the sentiment of the country, were never Morsi supporters.

 

[MaGZ]

Actually, they voted for him because he promised not to be a theocrat and to form an inclusive government, and because the other runoff candidate, Ahmed Shafik, was literally a tool of the previous regime (he was the last prime minister under Mubarak). And even then, Morsi barely squeaked out a victory, winning 51.7% of the vote to Shafik's 48.3%.

I would call that a landslide, just like Obama’s.

 

[MaGZ]

According to an interview with one of the military leaders I heard on the radio today, a major factor for the military to decide to intervene was that Morsi was in the process of making himself too powerful. According to the interviewee, Morsi had even proclaimed himself Pharaoh. If this is true, I understand and even approve of the decision to oust him. If it is true.

ETA: The "proclaimed himself Pharaoh" bit probably derives from the amendment to the constitution that he pioneered, making any laws he or his government created practically cemented in stone, not subject to amendment or appeal.

The Pharaoh line immediately reminded me of the claim Iran wants to annihilate Israel. Just more propaganda from our media and ElBaradei.

 

[A'isha]

What antidemocratic measures did Morsi take to justify a coup? Did he close down newspapers or place his opponents in jail?

Yes, actually.