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Mormonism Shock

Actually, you can visit some of Mormonism's holy sites in upstate New York, e.g., the Whitmer Farm and The Hill Cumora. You can visit the attached gift shops too, I suspect.

Hey, give mormonism eight or nine hundred years to acquire some patina. Some odor of sanctity? Whaddever.
 
I was raised in a Mormon family so I am pretty familiar with what the church teaches and what members typically believe.

I would say that the majority of members aren't aware of the DNA evidence and those that have heard about it tend to ignore it and don't consider it conclusive. The Mormon apologetic group FARMS suggests that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in a much smaller geographical area than previously thought and that the Israelite DNA was diluted over the years by intermarrying with the other inhabitants already on the continent. Most members don't read FARMS' papers though.

There has been no official church response to any DNA data that I'm aware of. The modern church leaders don't really talk about that sort of thing. They keep the focus on families, Jesus, and righteous living. Members are free to come to their own conclusions on a lot of issues like evolution, why people of African descent were denied the priesthood, Noah's ark, whether Jesus married while on earth, how Jesus was conceived, etc.

Also, the teachings of previous Prophets and Apostles are looked at from the point of view that they were only men and not everything they said was inspired by God. A lot of what was said in the past is seen as merely the opinions and conjectures of men shaped by the time they were living in. The difficult thing is that which teachings were inspired and which were not is never clearly defined. The current Prophet is considered the most accurate and can override previous teachings through new revelations or insights.

I don't know how to use those quote box things so I'll respond in paragraph form to some of Bill's points.

To clear a few things up, the star near which God dwells is Kolob, not Kora and there is even a hymn about it. And I've never heard a member or leader declare that Joseph Smith did more for mankind than Jesus, they always list him as second to Jesus in importance. And members don't think Joseph's death somehow allows them to become gods. They just hold his martyrdom up as an example of a man dying for his beliefs. They seem to think that if he was a fraud he would have had some sort of death bed confession and that his willingness to die for his beliefs proves his truthfulness.

And the idea that men can become gods, while unorthodox, has just as much evidence to support it as the teachings of other religions. It actually has a nice logic to it. If children grow up to be like their parents, then God's children ought to grow up to be like him (Of course only the most righteous progress to this level in the afterlife). Mormon theology tends to have a very matter of fact, logical approach to God which appeals to a lot of people.

God is seen as an individual physical being separate from Jesus and the Holy Ghost who dwells on a planet in another solar system and is bound by physical laws.

While members might not be aware of a lot of the historical teachings of the early church Prophets they are very honest about their beliefs. These aren't the first things the missionaries will discuss with investigators, but they don't keep any of their theological teachings secret. They're more than willing to share their beliefs with you, so I don't see how this is a "mormonism shock." The Prophet is much more coy about church teachings while doing interviews with Larry King or on 60 minutes than ordinary members are. They'll tell you anything you want to know except for what exactly goes on in the temple.
 
brontosaurusrex said:
And the idea that men can become gods, while unorthodox, has just as much evidence to support it as the teachings of other religions. It actually has a nice logic to it. If children grow up to be like their parents, then God's children ought to grow up to be like him (Of course only the most righteous progress to this level in the afterlife). Mormon theology tends to have a very matter of fact, logical approach to God which appeals to a lot of people.
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I wasn't aware of this bit of Mormon belief until it came up here on some other threads. Though I am not religious, I find the idea much more appealing than the doctrine of other faiths including the one I grew up in, Roman Catholicism. If I were forced to choose between a church big on humankind's natural tendency to fail because of original sin or a church that stresses that humankind is a naturally good being that will one day evole from flesh to something greater, I would choose the latter.
 
Zygar said:
Ever been to Utah? The plates are at least as much a cultural icon here as Chist is.

Regardless, this is a silly discussion. Mormons are unique, but they are not unique in having countless delusions with plenty of evidence to the contrary.
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Do they know that noone every REALLLY saw the gold plates? Not really. The people who signed off on them said in interviews that they saw them in visions with angles. And they were all close friends of Smith.

I wonder how all this stuff really truly started. I mean, what would make Smith do this. There is a book written about his psychology. I think I will read it.
 
brontosaurusrex said:
I was raised in a Mormon family so I am pretty familiar with what the church teaches and what members typically believe.

I would say that the majority of members aren't aware of the DNA evidence and those that have heard about it tend to ignore it and don't consider it conclusive. The Mormon apologetic group FARMS suggests that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in a much smaller geographical area than previously thought and that the Israelite DNA was diluted over the years by intermarrying with the other inhabitants already on the continent. Most members don't read FARMS' papers though.
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There is a support group for people trying to leave the church that has proven that the 0.6% of the DNA in Native American Tribes that does not trace back to North Eastern Asia came from European explorers or African Slaves and NONE came from the Middle East.
 
Historical accounts describe Smith as a con artist and he and his family was heavily involved in mystisim, visions and dreams. His brothers say that the angles were all dreams.

There was more to Smith than just the book. There are articles written in Missouri that describe him as having a huge ego and always bragging that he was smarter, stronger, and better than other people and about all the adventures he had been on. Sounds a lot like L. Ron Hubbard.

I imagine he was a little envious of John Wesley who came from England to start the Methodist Church. Why not have an American prophet?

Most of the scribes of the bible used hear-say and interviews and imagination to fill in details of events. I guess Smith figured he could do just as good.

The Mormons are right in a strange way in saying that the BoM came from God because it did not come from anything on Earth.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Do they know that noone every REALLLY saw the gold plates? Not really. The people who signed off on them said in interviews that they saw them in visions with angles. And they were all close friends of Smith.

I wonder how all this stuff really truly started. I mean, what would make Smith do this. There is a book written about his psychology. I think I will read it.
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The problem is that there was such a huge backlash against early Mormons including the "Mormon Extermination Order" that the average Mormon tends to discount a great deal of derogatory evidence as fraudulent and hearsay.

I am not saying this to justify their unwillingness to examine both sides of the evidence, but I am saying it because the only way you will convince a Mormon is to examine both sides of the evidence yourself.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Noah's Arc would be a better comparison. You got a beef about Jesus? Please start another thread.

I do not know why you would want to give the gold plates this much credit.
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So Mormons believe the plates were taken back up into heaven. Jesus was taken back up into heaven, that's why the tomb is empty isn't it? The plates and Jesus seem to have a similar amount of evidence. Mormons trust there were plates, and also trust there was Jesus. Seems pretty similar to me.
Besides, define "exist". Christ "exists" as a cultural icon. Just by thinking of him, in a sense, he exists. Good or bad, he is a part of the largest fath so far in humanity. Does any cultural icon exist?
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This hardly makes your point. To Mormons, the gold plates "exist" and serve as a symbol that God continues to reveal himself to people 'just as in the old time religion days'. There are millions of people who believe the plates existed, so does that make the plates more or less real than Jesus?
These magic gold plates, on the other hand, are the center piece of a cult that robs people of their own individuality.
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You are twisting what Mormons really believe to make your point, that will only make their job easier. Nobody claims magic plates. And your broad brushstroke of cult label is simplistic. More than anything, a 'cult' is a religious group that has no political influence. Once they have political power they are 'mainstream'.

Throwing people in jail for drug use robs people of their own individuality too. This seems too broad a claim.

I do not know why anyone would mix the two.
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While I might not believe any longer, I know many people who believe in the 'plates'. And they are not the kind of people you describe, which makes you wrong.
 
Beady said:
I still say that people who believe in angles are just being obtuse.
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An acute observation.

Between the talk of angles and "Noah's arc", I was thinking of getting out my compass and protractor...


Just giving you a hard time, Bill! :D
 
brontosaurusrex said:
To clear a few things up, the star near which God dwells is Kolob, not Kora and there is even a hymn about it.
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As I understand it, there is some debate as to whether Kolob is the planet where the god of this universe lives, or a star near that planet.

We'd better find out, because it would be difficult to hie there without knowing.
 
Bill Thompson said:
Do they know that noone every REALLLY saw the gold plates? Not really. The people who signed off on them said in interviews that they saw them in visions with angles. And they were all close friends of Smith.
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So what, really, so what? Christ walked on water, turned water into wine, fed a multitude with a few fish and a loaf of bread and brought a dead man back to life after he had been dead for a few days. So some guys said they saw angels with gold plates. Standard stuff for religion (check some of them out some time). If you can believe a man lived in a fish (Jonah) then you can believe anything. If you can believe that Mary was a virgin when she had a child then I have some swamp land fto sell you.

I wonder how all this stuff really truly started. I mean, what would make Smith do this. There is a book written about his psychology. I think I will read it.
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What's the mystery? Smith wanted money and influence and he wanted it the easy way. If you really need a book to understand then I would say you don't really understand human nature.
 
You know, ancient stuff is dug up all the time. There are even ancient writings dug up all the time.

We stayed at a friend's house years ago who was very kind and basically helped us out who was Mormon. The family was clean cut and had good healthy practices and had loving kids etc.etc.etc.

One day they showed me the book of Mormon. I had never seen it until then.

To be 100% honest, I had an open mind. I owed these people a lot of respect.

Yet, at the same time, I was shocked. With all those "And So It Came To Pass" and all those deliberate uses of the tone and words of The King James version of the Bible. I knew it had to be a fake. King James himself borrowed the older sound of English intentionally to make the bible sound more ancient in English. There was no reason for an American to do the same thing.

Here were normally intelligent and clear thinking people. Why was it that the Book of Mormon bypasses any judgment and analysis that any text gets before people start pouring their lives into it?

These were normal, and smart people in every other sense. I could not understand how anyone could take this Book as a book of facts.

I have come to learn that throughout Smith's life he was fascinated by Indian mounds and liked to spin intricate romances about who built them, and why. "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined," his mother, Lucy Smith, once said. "He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them"

My son is just a little kid and already he has written some picture books about the adventures of a camel. Young people have great imaginations.

This was Smith's passion and obsession. This fact is clear before he was supposed to have discovered this gold book. Why doesn't anyone come to grip with this? Why are there so many Mormons around today?

I also wonder why Smith did what he did. Was he just a nut? Maybe he was just a soulless opportunistic manipulator.

Also, I wonder if gullibility is genetic. Not everyone packed up and followed Smith from New York to his little Theocracy (Jim Jones, anyone?). Aren't all the Mormons today basically descendants of that group?
 
Bill Thompson said:
Yet, at the same time, I was shocked...
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:eek: {eek}

Calm down Bill.

Also, I wonder if gullibility is genetic. Not everyone packed up and followed Smith from New York to his little Theocracy (Jim Jones, anyone?). Aren't all the Mormons today basically descendants of that group?
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Is this supposed to be logic or are you just musing? Are you serious?
 
RandFan said:
What's the mystery? Smith wanted money and influence and he wanted it the easy way. If you really need a book to understand then I would say you don't really understand human nature.
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Maybe I don't understand the nature of some humans.

Have you ever heard of something called The Vinland Map? It was a fake map of the New World supposedly made by Vikings. It has turned out to have been made by a priest who was obcessed with the idea that the Vikings discovered The New World.

It turns out the Vikings did travel to the New World although the map is still a fake.

Anyway, the point is, this priest did this as a kind of exercise. Maybe Smith wrote the book as a kind of exercise and did not intent it to be taken seriously.
 
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