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Mormonism Shock

Bill Thompson

Banned
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
6,171
Some people I know of from Brazil get into Mormonism. For fun I have been poking around in it and what I have discovered saddens me.

Among all of the volumes of scientific, historic, and linguistic conflicts one has to wrestle with is the fact that there really weren't any real gold plates and that Smith just did a sort of crystal ball act with stones put into a hat and held against his face. The golden book was a vision that he shared with close friends who saw this image in a state of religious frenzy.

Here is a notorious con man prophet with a story that is falsehood from every angle you look at it.

I understand how Smith and his buddies basically rode the backlash towards the Industrial Revolution. People were hungry for something real to cling to since all their cultural myths and traditions and even rituals were being smashed by approaching technology. But it saddens me that even today there are so many millions of Mormons.
 
Some people I know of from Brazil get into Mormonism. For fun I have been poking around in it and what I have discovered saddens me.

Among all of the volumes of scientific, historic, and linguistic conflicts one has to wrestle with is the fact that there really weren't any real gold plates and that Smith just did a sort of crystal ball act with stones put into a hat and held against his face. The golden book was a vision that he shared with close friends who saw this image in a state of religious frenzy.

Here is a notorious con man prophet with a story that is falsehood from every angle you look at it.

I understand how Smith and his buddies basically rode the backlash towards the Industrial Revolution. People were hungry for something real to cling to since all their cultural myths and traditions and even rituals were being smashed by approaching technology. But it saddens me that even today there are so many millions of Mormons.

Agreed. Although I don't see it as worse than any other flavor of Xtianity.
 
A quote from "Cold Fusion: The Musical":

"How do I know you're the -real- Joseph Smith?"

"Simple. You're a Mormon- you'll believe anything."

"You ARE the real Joseph Smith!"

I don't really have a problem with the Mormons, except for the prats who keep knocking on my door to try to convert me. But other sects do that, too.
 
Agreed. Although I don't see it as worse than any other flavor of Xtianity.

I'll second that.

I just finished The God Delusion and I think it appropriate to mention an anecdote from the book where Dawkins talks about cargo cults (which are an amazing phenomenon that I wasn't aware of).

Anyway, the story - this religion is waiting for their messiah to show up. After like seventeen years, the leaders say, "the messiah will be here next Tuesday". Next Tuesday comes and goes. No messiah. So the followers are asked by a Westener, "Well, now that your messiah hasn't shown up aren't you going to leave the faith"? To which the believer responses, "If Christians can wait two-thousand years for Jesus to return, I can wait another seventeen years for my messiah."

My point- new religions seem more absurd because time hasn't hidden away the failings of the messiah and the holy doctrine.
 
The only thing is that Mormonism has been one of the fastest growing Christian sects.

American Indians aren't always so happy with them either. The Mormons think they are the lost tribes of Israel.
 
Agreed. Although I don't see it as worse than any other flavor of Xtianity.

The others have tradition culture and art. I can jump on a plane and visit the places mentioned in the Bible. Since all the places in the Book of Mormon are made up, that is impossible. And yet that does not stop the faithful from devoting their life to it.
 
This is pretty much how it goes.
http://www.ifilm.com/video/2757097

We produced a piece of animation to show you what Mormon Theology is really all about.

Mormonism teaches that trillions of planets scattered throughout the cosmos are ruled by countless gods who once were human like us. They say that long ago on one of these planets, to an unidentified god and one of his goddess wives, a spirit child named Elohim was conceived. This spirit child was later born to human parents who gave him a physical body. Through obedience to Mormon teaching in death and resurrection, he proved himself worthy and was elevated to godhood as his father before him.
Mormons believe that Elohim is their heavenly father and he lives with his many goddess wives on a planet near a mysterious star called Kora. Here the god of Mormonism and his wives through endless celestial sex produce billions of spirit children. To decide their destiny, the head of the Mormon gods called a great heavenly consul meeting. Both of Elohim's eldest sons were there, Lucifer and his brother Jesus. A plan was presented to build planet earth where the spirit children would be sent to take on mortal bodies and learn good from evil

Lucifer stood and made his bid for becoming savior of this new world. Wanting the glory for himself. He planned to force every one to become Gods
Opposing the idea, the Mormon Jesus suggested giving man his freedom of choice as on other planets

The vote that followed approved the proposal of the Mormon Jesus who had become savior of the planet earth

Enraged, Lucifer cunningly convinced one third of the spirits destined for earth to fight with him and revolt. Thus Lucifer became the devil and his followers the demons. Sent to this world they would forever be denied bodies with flesh and bone. Those who remained neutral in the battle were cursed to be borne with black skin. This is the Mormon explanation for the Negro race.

The spirits who fought most valiantly against Lucifer would be born into Mormon families on planet earth.

These will be the lighter skinned people or white and delight-some as the book of Mormon describes him.

Early Mormon profits taught that Elohim and one of his goddess wives came to earth as Adam and eve to start the human race.

Thousands of years later, Elohim in human form once again journeyed to earth from the star base Kora. This time to have sex with the Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus with a physical body. After Jesus Christ grew to manhood, he took at least three wives, Mary, Martha, And Mary Magdalene. Through these wives, the Mormon Jesus, for whom Joseph Smith claims direct decent, supposedly fathered a number of children before he was crucified.

According to the book of Mormon, after his resurrection. Jesus came to the Americas to preach to the Indians whom the Mormons believe are really Israelites.

Thus the Jesus of Mormonism established his church in the Americas as he had in Palestine.

By the year 1421AD, the dark skinned Indian Israelites known as Laymanites had destroyed all of the white Nephites in a number of great battles.
The Nephites records were supposedly written on Golden Plates and buried by Moroni the last living Nephite in the hill, Kamora.

1400 years later, a young treasure seeker named Joseph Smith who was known for his tall tales claimed to have uncovered these same gold plates near his home in upstate New York

He is now honored by Mormons as a profit because he claimed to have had visions from the spirit world in which he was commanded to organize the Mormon Church because all Christian creeds were an abomination.

It was Joseph Smith who originated most of these peculiar doctrines which millions today believe to be true

By maintaining a rigid code of financial and moral requirements and through performing sacred temple rituals for themselves and the dead, the later day saints hope to prove their worthiness and thus become gods.

The Mormons teach that everyone must stand at the final judgment before Joseph Smith, the Mormon Jesus and Elohim.

Those Mormons who are sealed in the eternal marriage ceremony expect to become polygamist gods in the celestial kingdom, rule over other planets and spawn new families throughout eternity

Those Mormons thank god for Joseph Smith who claimed he done more for us than any other man including Jesus Christ.

The Mormons believe that he died as a martyr, shed his blood for us so that we too may become gods.

{edited for formating)
 
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I find his story more entertaining than L Ron Hubbard, and it was created back in the 1800's! If he was alive today, he would have won a Nebula Award.

We should bring back the practice of using a seer stone. This is how he really wrote the book of mormon. A stone found with some interesting properties would be put in a hat and Smith would cover his face completely without letting in any light. This way he would get the messages from God instead of himself.

It is entertaining. That must be why people like it. I wonder of L. Ron borrowed some or was inspired by Smith's story.

Smith was extremely convincing with these seerer stones. He bilked some guy out of a fortune before the book of mormon was written by tricking him into thinking the seer stone would lead to a burried treasure. Smith was arrested and sent to court for this.

I think a motivation was the fact that Smith bragged about his son or any offspring of his would be a wonderful sight. And yet Emma's first child was malformed and still-born. This, I think is behind his families-in-another-world-after-life idea. It was at this time that Smith wrote the capter of the huge batter were all the lighter-skinned tribe was wiped out, by the way.

Like many things, if you dig deeper and you go to the original source, the mystery disolves.
 
There is more to Joseph Smith than the book of Mormon.The problem is, when you think of prophets you usually think of meek holy men like Gandhi or Christ. You typically do not think of narcissistic egomaniacs who all they ever do is talk about how smart they are, how strong they are, how they can beat anyone at wrestling or any other test. And how they can fool anybody.
 
There's about as much evidence for the gold plates as there is for Jesus being a real person.
 
There's about as much evidence for the gold plates as there is for Jesus being a real person.

Noah's Arc would be a better comparison. You got a beef about Jesus? Please start another thread.

I do not know why you would want to give the gold plates this much credit.

Besides, define "exist". Christ "exists" as a cultural icon. Just by thinking of him, in a sense, he exists. Good or bad, he is a part of the largest fath so far in humanity. Does any cultural icon exist?

These magic gold plates, on the other hand, are the center piece of a cult that robs people of their own individuality. I do not know why anyone would mix the two.
 
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Noah's Arc would be a better comparison. You got a beef about Jesus? Please start another thread.

Wow. That's just... Wow. No.

I do not know why you would want to give the gold plates this much credit.

Besides, define "exist". Christ "exists" as a cultural icon. Just by thinking of him, in a sense, he exists. Good or bad, he is a part of the largest fath so far in humanity. Does any cultural icon exist?

Well, yeah. Depends on how one defines "cultural icon," but yeah, some are fictional, and some are not. People and events can get elevated to that status, too. Ever heard of The Beatles? Woodstock? Haight-Asbury? JFK?

These magic gold plates, on the other hand, are the center piece of a cult that robs people of their own individuality. I do not know why anyone would mix the two.

I would, because you just described many other religions, including Christianity. Flocks are not exactly known for their individualist natures.

Lighten up a little, hmm? When discussing imaginary constructs, it's all pretty much opinion.
 
I wonder what Mormons say about DNA testing which proves South American Indians are NOT remotely related to Jews?
 
I wonder what Mormons say about DNA testing which proves South American Indians are NOT remotely related to Jews?

They layer on more magic and miracles just like people who I debate the Great Flood story with. They typically say that since the there were two tribes the one that remained had been cursed since they killed off the other tribe. The lighter skinned Lamanites (I don't know how it is spelled) were wiped out by another tribe. As punishment, God transformed the conquering tribe. But if that was true, the mummies found in Peru would look like middle eastern people. (Wouldn't that be discovery!! Can you imagine if that ever happened.) Wait, let me guess, they will say that even the bodies of the previous generations were transformed. More magic.

Another angle they use is that there might have been native people here but the people from Israel mixed with them. This does not work because of the size of the populations described in the book of Mormon and the fact that not even a trace of DNA from the middle east is found in any of the Native American Tribes.

Finally, as the president of the church has finally admitted, the book of mormon is just a book of faith and you should just leave it at that. It is faith and faith alone. The problem with this is that you are forcing people into a ritual that is based on a lie. I don't see how these people can be happy. But for some reason they seem to be blissfully happy. It is a mystery to me.

I would feel better if I got some statistics that the church is shrinking.
 
Besides, define "exist". Christ "exists" as a cultural icon. Just by thinking of him, in a sense, he exists. Good or bad, he is a part of the largest fath so far in humanity. Does any cultural icon exist?

These magic gold plates, on the other hand, are the center piece of a cult that robs people of their own individuality. I do not know why anyone would mix the two.

Ever been to Utah? The plates are at least as much a cultural icon here as Chist is.

Regardless, this is a silly discussion. Mormons are unique, but they are not unique in having countless delusions with plenty of evidence to the contrary.
 
Finally, as the president of the church has finally admitted, the book of mormon is just a book of faith and you should just leave it at that. It is faith and faith alone. The problem with this is that you are forcing people into a ritual that is based on a lie. I don't see how these people can be happy. But for some reason they seem to be blissfully happy. It is a mystery to me.

Can't this be said of any religioin? Aren't all holy scriptures ultimately books of faith?

I'm with zygar and sb on this one. Mormonism is just another wacky apple from the tree of religion.
 

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