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Moral Disgust

Informed, consensual and safe applies to people who have the capacity to understand these concepts. Animals and young children do not have that capacity.

This is true but in the case of the OP the two people involved were able to understand the concepts very well and were clearly of an age of consent.

So while you can give rational arguments for why sex between adults and children or adults and animals are wrong, you don't seem to feel the need for doing the same with adult siblings but seem to hope that "morally despicable" covers it.

Can you think of any rational argument for these acts?

Rational argument for two adult siblings having sex? Well, they would enjoy it and not feel there was anything immoral on the basis that they understand the risks and have both consented.
 
Yes I drink milk. I don't have sexual intercourse with cows though.

There is a big difference.

By drinking milk you relieve the pressure in the cows udders.

When a cow produces milk for it's calf, it will do so as long as there is a suckling calf, so where is the commonality between the two scenarios?

By having sex with cows you relieve your own disgusting desires.
The cow derives no benefit.

Wouldn't it be better not to rape the cow in the first place? What benefit does a dairy cow get (other than existing to satisfy human desires) from repeatedly being artificially inseminated by humans and having her calves removed so humans can drink her milk?

Would it be wrong for a human to sexually excite a cow during insemination if it increased the likelihood of her getting pregnant?
 
I see what Ivor is doing, and at the very least I appreciate that he's trying to make us think.

I don't know if he's really in favour of sex with dairy animals, but it is a good question, at least on the surface (I don't know enough about the ethical issues of milk production to make a judgment here). If we're supporting abuse a, what right do we have to oppose and condemn abuse b?
 
Could there possibly be a rational basis for not condemming these acts?
In the cases of bestiality and pedophilia in general I'd be hard pressed to find one, but I can still see grey areas in both these two.

For instance, a consensual sexual relationship between a 19 year old and a 17 year old. It's legally pedophilia, but I don't see why I should condemn that.

And is having sex with a willing horse really different from e.g. "milking" a bull using a fake cow as a kind of masturbatory aid?
If the animals aren't forced to have sex, I don't see how the two are different from the perspective of the animal. No harm, no foul.

I don't know, but every fibre of my being screams out against these acts.
But they scream out against the extremes. The extremes are not interesting morally.
Of course I condemn sexual abuse of one's own children, but there are very good rational reasons to condemn it. It gets interesting when there aren't good rational reasons to condemn something that doesn't sit well emotionally. And I do believe that in those cases, the rational approach is the best.

Informed, consensual and safe applies to people who have the capacity to understand these concepts. Animals and young children do not have that capacity.
Yes. What about adult siblings, though, like in the OP? What about a 40 year old parent falling mutually in love with a 20 year old child?

It's where grey areas exist where things get interesting; where you need to sit back and think about what to think about it.
 
http://www.nd.edu/~wcarbona/Haidt 2001.pdf

Are our feelings and intuitions about particular behaviours a better guide for what acts we ought to prohibit or condemn than rationally evaluating whether there was any harm from those acts?

Ivor, I think you've proven your point with this thread alone.

There are some posters here, who were "morally disgusted" by their feelings and intuitions and proceeded to just pontificate on the example, and people who were responding to those who were feeling "morally disgusted" rather than addressing your actual question.

Good job, sir! :)
 
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Wouldn't it be better not to rape the cow in the first place? What benefit does a dairy cow get (other than existing to satisfy human desires) from repeatedly being artificially inseminated by humans and having her calves removed so humans can drink her milk?

Artificial insemination = rape? Did you hear the cow say no? :D
Well thats how we get veal and milk. That is why we have cows is it not?


Would it be wrong for a human to sexually excite a cow during insemination if it increased the likelihood of her getting pregnant?

No, if it facilitates the pregnancy.

However, if the farmer is jaqing off at the same time, then the farmer is morally despicable in his actions.
 
Artificial insemination = rape? Did you hear the cow say no?
Also, do you know anything about the psychological effects of "raping" a cow in this manner? Remember not to anthromorphise animals.
 
Artificial insemination = rape? Did you hear the cow say no? :D
Well thats how we get veal and milk. That is why we have cows is it not?




No, if it facilitates the pregnancy.

However, if the farmer is jaqing off at the same time, then the farmer is morally despicable in his actions.
So it's okay to keep cows to give milk; a process that involves screwing around with the animal's reproductive cycle, killing its offspring, sexually exciting cows and jacking off bulls. Yet, on the other hand, it is despicable if the farmer finds this strangely exciting and jacks off; an action that affects nothing in a negative way whatsoever, and even benefits the farmer?

I don't find that very understandable at all.
 
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Ivor, on feelings vs rationality.

If it is a matter of feelings, then yes, in many cases feelings should predominate in deciding the issue.

For example: a parent continually berating a child is generally known to cause all kinds of emotional issues (I'm not going to cite or debate that - feel free to change the scenario slightly if this one doesn't sit well). In such a case feelings/emotions should be the overriding decision maker, yes? We are, after all, thinking and feeling animals; denying half of that is rather short sighted.

I suspect some will find the above not rigorous. After all, I am talking about the feeling of the child, but the OP asks about the feelings of the decider, which in this case certainly is two different people. While I concur with that, this scenario is just a quick example to make the point that feelings matter. I'm trying to write a forum post, not a book on ethics. Alternatively, I suppose one could argue that I'm making a rational decision, in that I'm using reason to decide emotions are important. I'd consider that a cheap trick - parsing a question and answering it requires reason, so that line of argument would automatically invalidate the 'feeling' answer. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just anticipate possible objections. And, obviously, you must strike a balance. If I "feel" like I should punch you in the face (I don't) - I would hope it's clear I'm not advocating that I can just start swinging. We need to balance everyone's well being and rights, and to do that we need reason. IOW, favoring just one side of that equation to the exclusion of the other is when you end up with messed up situations.

In the case of the OP scenario, although perhaps those specific 2 people are not harmed, I suspect research would bear out (I'm not going to spend my day googling incest, thank you) that beside the birth defects issue there is probably a lot of risk of various emotional trauma, power imbalances, etc. I would guess it is not an easy topic to ethically research. How do you tease out emotional damage due to violating a taboo vs emotional damage caused even if there wasn't a taboo? I dunno. I suggest, strongly, putting a priority on our feelings about a situation over being 'rational' when emotions play a factor in harm.

edit: I guess to summarize this I would say that our feelings about an issue are often rooted in how we would feeling about an instance happening to us. I react in horror at the thought of somebody killing me for no reason - I don't need rationality in any great amounts to conclude murder is off the table. OTOH, it isn't that hard to construct functionally identical scenerios where a person will choose opposite actions just based on the wording of the problem. I'm thinking of the famous train problems where you switch a train to travel on track A or B and end up killing or not killing people. In those cases our feelings and intuitions seem to be unreliable. Blindly reacting to emotions is not the answer, but neither is purely relying on reason. Are emotions are based on our biology, and run deep. That they lead us astray sometimes is not any reason to ignore them, just to view them with suspicion.
 
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He's asking for critical thinking and discussion

No, he's not. If he were, he would treat the discussion with intellectual honesty.

There would be discourse, instead of JAQuing off. There would be dialectic, instead of goalpost moving. There would be arguments, instead of green-eggs-and-hamming.

Ivor was not this coy when he claimed that you would have to be mentally ill to get a tattoo and his disgust of overweight people is well documented. In fact, his disgust of anyone who isn't, essentially, ItE, is well documented.

All of which stances that in themselves or in how they were argued clearly did not convey any lack of emotional investment, nor any fertile source of critical thinking.

Lionking had good reason to suspect that this is where the thread is going, because frankly, Ivor has form. It is beyond me why some posters find they need to enable that. He certainly gets no real benefit from that enabling, particularly not in the long run.
 
I don't find that very understandable at all.


What I find totally incomprehensible is that any adult should find animals and children sexually attractive.

This, IMO, shows that the individual who participates in these activities has serious mental issues.
 
What I find totally incomprehensible is that any adult should find animals and children sexually attractive.

This, IMO, shows that the individual who participates in these activities has serious mental issues.

This normative argument has also been used against homosexuals? That is... it's not statistically normal, therefore it must be a mental illness.

It's just sexual preference... it might be harmful to children in the pedophile's case, and there's also a consent issue in the case of animals, but it isn't "mental issues" in the way that you imply here. Keep in mind that it isn't unlawful or even immoral to be sexually attracted to children or animals (it's not something anyone can control, in any case)... but it's generally considered both to act on those attractions. -- unless you want to get into a discussion of thought-crime, perhaps.
 
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What I find totally incomprehensible is that any adult should find animals and children sexually attractive.

This, IMO, shows that the individual who participates in these activities has serious mental issues.
That may be, but that's not what makes it wrong in my opinion, nor does it address any of the grey areas I described, or even acknowledge the existence of these grey areas.

I was hoping for an interesting discussion, not a restatement of your opinion.
 
This normative argument has also been used against homosexuals? That is... it's not statistically normal, therefore it must be a mental illness.

Don't come the raw prawn, mate. You can't compare a homosexual relationship between consenting adults with any of that. That's stumbling into nambla territory.

Why is "consent" and "adult" so difficult for some people to grasp?
 
This normative argument has also been used against homosexuals? That is... it's not statistically normal, therefore it must be a mental illness.

Whatever two consenting adults of any gender do to each other is their business.

Bringing animals and children into this scenario is not by any means normal.

Once again my opinion.
 
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I was hoping for an interesting discussion, not a restatement of your opinion.

If you looking at me to agree with sex between adults and children or animals, then you have a long wait ahead of you.

My opinion is that there is no rational basis for these acts.
 
What I find totally incomprehensible is that any adult should find animals and children sexually attractive.

This, IMO, shows that the individual who participates in these activities has serious mental issues.

Funny that, I find it much easier to believe that an adult male can find a 15 year old female 'child' attractive than I do to believe that an adult male can find another adult male attractive. Or that David Cameron's Mrs can find David Cameron attractive.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they have 'serious mental issues' though.
 

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