Moonbat alert: Chomksy condemns Bin Laden kill.

Again, this also is false. Plans are being made that people other than the ones doing the planning were worried might lead to mass starvation.

I don't disagree with anything else you said, but even that's false.

The original UN report stated that there were millions of people at risk of starvation. This was a perfectly reasonable statement. The report was a good report, and they have a history of being pretty solid. They are, of course, frequently used by aid agencies and groups to target relief.

This is not the same as saying that there was a risk of starving millions of people (as Chomsky, typically for him, represented it).

This should not be hard to understand, but it probably is. The entire State of Alabama is at risk, every year, for tornadoes, which do things like kill people directly, destroy homes, cut off power, and result in food shortages. The State of Alabama has almost 5 million people. Therefore, almost 5 million people are at risk of destruction from a tornado every year.

It is not, however, true that there is a risk that 5 million Alabamians will be damaged by a tornado every year.

In any event, Chomsky got this way the hell wrong, supporting some nasty swipes, which I'm sure his fans accept uncritically.
 
I was able to confirm every statement (from the cited publication or elsewhere) with a Google news archive search
Please, elaborate on this planned Afghani genocide through starvation you found in your Google news archive search.
 
Personally, my journey into and out of Chomsky's work left me considering why I ended up moving to greener pastures, and reason #1 was a tendency to stridency and an obvious emotional undercurrent to his writing. So when discussing say, America's regrettable involvement with brutality in South and Central America I felt he was moving more towards thinking of an active callousness in American planning when I personally was moving more towards a Hannah Arendt kind of "banality of evil" interpretation.

You seem like a rational guy Ziggurat, and I'd never figure you to be one to fall to the callous lows on display in this thread, what do you think motivates Chomsky and leads him to his errors?

I really don't know. Maybe it's simply a penchant for hyperbole. Maybe he likes to shock and offend. Maybe he likes playing the iconoclast, "speaking truth to power". Hell, maybe he even honestly believes all his arguments.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me why he does what he does, the relevant point is that he does it. He gets stuff wrong, really wrong, and in a consistent direction. Whatever the cause, that pattern remains.

One of Chomsky's biggest flaws is that his arguments so often revolve around attributing malice to actions that may have other explanations. I don't intend to mirror that mistake in regards to him, but I don't think I need to either in order to refute him.

Very well stated.
 
So it's fair to say a large proportion of Palestinians support the genocidal policies of Hamas?

Or does Hamas both represent and not represent Palestinians at the same time, depending on your whims at the moment?

i'm only guessing, but i would think that the average palestinian is a moderate, more concerned with their family's well-being, than politics.
and probably a majority of the rest, support hamas on policies other than genocide.
do you really, in the remotest corner of your mind, really think that most palestinians want to 'kill all the jews'?
there are whackos everywhere,
and the whackos always seem to get the best press, on both sides.
 
i'm only guessing, but i would think that the average palestinian is a moderate, more concerned with their family's well-being, than politics.
and probably a majority of the rest, support hamas on policies other than genocide.
do you really, in the remotest corner of your mind, really think that most palestinians want to 'kill all the jews'?
there are whackos everywhere,
and the whackos always seem to get the best press, on both sides.
Would you vote for a party of raging anti-semites advocating genocide if you liked the other planks in their platform?

Why or why not?
 
Would you vote for a party of raging anti-semites advocating genocide if you liked the other planks in their platform?

Why or why not?

i don't know, honestly.
happily, i do not have to make that choice.
you can be certain, that like any other group of lying scumbag politicians (all of them) on the planet, hamas' rhetoric is far from the reality of their stance.
 
i don't know, honestly.
happily, i do not have to make that choice.
you can be certain, that like any other group of lying scumbag politicians (all of them) on the planet, hamas' rhetoric is far from the reality of their stance.

I believe it is true that politicians will generally say whatever they think is nessesary to get elected whether they believe it or not. But how exactly does advocating genocide help them get elected unless a signicant portion of the population agrees?
 
I believe it is true that politicians will generally say whatever they think is nessesary to get elected whether they believe it or not. But how exactly does advocating genocide help them get elected unless a signicant portion of the population agrees?

arab men, and mediterranean men in general, have an incredible sense of bravado and macho grandstanding.
most people probably just think that they are full of **** in these regards, but they present a strong face to the world.
if hamas is opening a new mega mall in gaza, they are obviously pretty good administrators.

I]please ignore the weird link.[/I]
 
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arab men, and mediterranean men in general, have an incredible sense of bravado and macho grandstanding.
most people probably just think that they are full of **** in these regards, but they present a strong face to the world.
if hamas is opening a new mega mall in gaza, they are obviously pretty good administrators.

I]please ignore the weird link.[/I]

So the acts of terrorism or just for ***** and giggles?
 
I really don't know. Maybe it's simply a penchant for hyperbole. Maybe he likes to shock and offend. Maybe he likes playing the iconoclast, "speaking truth to power". Hell, maybe he even honestly believes all his arguments.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me why he does what he does, the relevant point is that he does it. He gets stuff wrong, really wrong, and in a consistent direction. Whatever the cause, that pattern remains.

One of Chomsky's biggest flaws is that his arguments so often revolve around attributing malice to actions that may have other explanations. I don't intend to mirror that mistake in regards to him, but I don't think I need to either in order to refute him.


In fact, I don't think this is true. I do occasionally pick up some of his work to read and find that quite often he will say things along the lines of "there have been genuine attempts by the US to impose democratic ideals on other countries but only insofar as they coincide with US interests."

As for "attributing malice" this is also not something Chomsky does that often as far as I can see. He has a tendency to say things such as "whereas some of the US' enemies do act out of genuine hatred for the US many people in the US tend not to support or permit US foreign policy because of hatred even though those policies often kill many people. This is because the deaths of such people barely even rise to the conscious level of many US citizens. It is similar to when I am walking down the street and crushing ants under my shoes. I don't even think about it because the deaths of the ants are very rarely any concern for me."
 
if hamas is opening a new mega mall in gaza, they are obviously pretty good administrators.
And yet if someone were to open a new mega mall, or any other blatant symbol and engine of capitalism, anywhere else in the world, you would condemn them as corrupt, exploitative con men, out to get whatever they can for themselves at the expense of everybody else, ruining the planet in the process.
 
I know! he really LOVES evil!

In fact, he does. He calls it in all kinds of names, but the reality is he openly supports the like of Hizbullah and sundry communist dictatorial murderers, not to mention excusing holocaust deniers.

He probably sees what most people call "genocidal murderers" as "freedom fighters" or "opponents of capitalist hegemony" or similar catch phrases, but yes, he clearly has quite a bit of sympathy for quite a lot of very evil people.
 
I really don't know. Maybe it's simply a penchant for hyperbole. Maybe he likes to shock and offend. Maybe he likes playing the iconoclast, "speaking truth to power". Hell, maybe he even honestly believes all his arguments.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me why he does what he does, the relevant point is that he does it. He gets stuff wrong, really wrong, and in a consistent direction. Whatever the cause, that pattern remains.

I have to disagree with you that he speaks in a consistent direction. Just a few days ago, Chomsky wrote about Chavez thus:

Concentration of executive power, unless it's very temporary and for specific circumstances, such as fighting world war two, is an assault on democracy. You can debate whether [Venezuela's] circumstances require it: internal circumstances and the external threat of attack, that's a legitimate debate. But my own judgment in that debate is that it does not.

Less than two years ago, he wrote:

"I write about peace and criticize the barriers to peace; that's easy. What's harder is to create a better world... and what's so exciting about at last visiting Venezuela is that I can see how a better world is being created.

Now, I don't give a wet slap about Venezuela, except that I'm impressed that Chavez made good (a little bit anyway) on his offer of free heating oil for poor people in the US. I neither avoid nor am attracted to Citgo stations. I do think that Chavez could make a real sweetheart deal by offering some land to Disney to build up, but that's probably unrealistic.

Still, the two statements are contradictory. Which is it?

For normal people, there could be two answers.

One is that something in Chavez and/or Venezuela has changed in the past year and a half. Stranger things have happened. I have not seen an explication from Chomsky, and I predict that it is not forthcoming.

Another is that something has changed in Chomsky. That is, that he has changed his mind. A normal person would admit this.

My respect for Ronald Reagan asymptotically approaches zero. Yet, when questioned about the difference between his "evil empire" and being buddy-buddy with the Soviet Union, at least he attempted, flusteringly, to grapple with the discord in his own moronic way. I don't see Chomsky rising even to this rather low level.

Instead, Chomsky says a lot of stuff, a lot of it contradictory (which I haven't seen him ever admit). When questioned about contradictions, he inevitably gets aggressive and smarmy and lies about what he said. He has accreted fans who cherry-pick what he's said and say that's right (although they do get it wrong, since Chomsky makes false statements about sources). In that respect, they are different in no important way from the dittoheads with the "Rush is Right" bumper stickers.
 
I was on the fence about the killing of Bin Laden. Once I found out Chomsky was against it I knew it was the right thing to do.
 
I have to disagree with you that he speaks in a consistent direction.

That's not quite what I meant. I meant his errors are in a consistent direction. I don't see this particular example contradicting that, though it is interesting that he's not terribly consistent in general.

Just a few days ago, Chomsky wrote about Chavez thus:
[snip]
Less than two years ago, he wrote:
[snip]

Two years ago, it was obvious Venezuela wasn't becoming a "better world", and that what Chavez wanted was a dictatorship where the remnants of democracy were mere window dressing. Chomsky's words, coming at a time when Chavez might be about to lose his grip on power because of his medical condition, are more than a little bit late in coming, and rather weak tea at that.

Still, the two statements are contradictory. Which is it?

Indeed, that is a problem, one which is not likely to get resolved in any coherent manner.

Instead, Chomsky says a lot of stuff, a lot of it contradictory (which I haven't seen him ever admit). When questioned about contradictions, he inevitably gets aggressive and smarmy and lies about what he said.

You might like this parody of an interview with Chomsky, which plays up on that sort of thing:
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=16470
 
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That's not quite what I meant. I meant his errors are in a consistent direction. I don't see this particular example contradicting that, though it is interesting that he's not terribly consistent in general.

Well, perhaps you can explain that. I admit that I concentrate on his tactics rather than his conclusions. The only pattern I can see is that his arguments seem to be conclusion-driven. Other than that, it's a mess. He'll quite gleefully pump up the fatuities of obscure offers and dismiss or ignore statements by people with serious cred. It's all ad hoc, Fairfax reasoning.

It works, though, and it seems to appeal to his fans.

Indeed, that is a problem, one which is not likely to get resolved in any coherent manner.

Let this be a prediction, then. There's a new data stream, Chomsky's comments about Venezuela, described in this here thread. I predict that Chomsky will not resolve them in anything like what a reasonable person would consider a coherent manner within one year.
 
There's a new data stream


You call those two snippets without source a data stream? Why do you guys always have to get asked to provide sources? But even without context I see no contradiction there. In one instance he supports the general development in Venezuela, in the other one he criticizes Chavez' personal tendency to act as a Caudillo - presumably criticism on high level. It's not all black and white, you know.
 

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