Moonbat alert: Chomksy condemns Bin Laden kill.

Since you only picked Syria to disagree with then I take it you concede the Iranian threat to Lebanon, Iraq, Israel and the Arab Gulf states? And that I win on those? And that the "poor widdle Iran never hurt anyone" defense is as ignorant as piss?
 
Since you only picked Syria to disagree with then I take it you concede the Iranian threat to Lebanon, Iraq, Israel and the Arab Gulf states? And that I win on those? And that the "poor widdle Iran never hurt anyone" defense is as ignorant as piss?

I agree with Egslim that, from an unbiased perspective and making no judgements on the merits of any of these countries' systems of government, the US poses a much more serious and existential threat to Iran than Iran poses to any of those countries you mentioned.

Also, why are you dodging my question about the video?
 
'Prevent an insane government from ruining the lives of more people', by embargoing the country into the ground economically?
If that's the US government's motive, they're a lot more insane than Castro ever was. Embargoes always hit the people harder than the government.

Anyone who reads the wiki page on the situation will feel conflicted on some level or perhaps they are inhuman. Obama has made a series of progressive moves but these people are too stupid to accept the terms. Do you have a coherent argument as to why the terms that were offered by the WH should have been rejected? I honestly think they really want to move on this issue and are fretting more than you but understand more about it. Luckily we can pretty much see what the WH thinks about anything quite easily these days.

I said 'Iran has far more reason to feel threatened by the US than any other country has to feel threatened by Iran.' If you disagree with that, show me which country is more threatened by Iran than Iran by the US. And back it up with facts.
How you even imploring us to measure such a difference in the level of threat and draw conclusions from it? Are they not simply an insane and brutal country? They would face no threat if they weren't evil. If they get nukes everyone has a lot to fear especially anyone who ever wants peace in the middle east, as elucidated by our friend Christopher in the not too-distant past. It would take a book to detail the reasons Iran is a danger to the world. Perhaps coincidentally many such books are available. The point is that you have no case that Iran faces a threat from the U.S. for an unjust reason other than fearmongering about the power of the military, and no case that Barack is going to do something stupid about them.

The US invaded two of its neighbours, labelled Iran as part of the Axis of Evil which made it a target for forced regime-change, and put the country under heavy economic embargo.

There is no country in the world that is under even close to similar threat from Iran.
Yeah, poor Ahmadinejad, they totally don't deserve it... :rolleyes:

Peace treaty with and diplomatic recognition of North Korea.
Honestly they psychopathic criminals that horrifically abuse millions of people, that wouldn't change a thing in anyone's mind about them, what could that possibly achieve? Why would we send a message that we think anything differently are we going along to get along wth? :rolleyes:

It's evidence that the US is militarily aggressive, and not a peaceful country by any reasonable standard. Which is what I said before.
That's just rhetoric. If these countries agreed to stop threatening people without a legitimate reason and committing flagrant human rights abuses they could pretty much do whatever they wanted to and face nothing but soft action from the United States. It is a fallacy to assume that a military who is "aggressive" (a neutral word) is also immoral, but obviously they make mistakes and occasionally walk the line, much rarer cross it. Let's not forget we still have a free press and the right to public inquiries and that important people go to jail all the time. Do you have a list of Americans that you think should be in jail that aren't? A list of crimes unacknowledged by the US govt?

Hey, if you think military aggressiveness is a virtue you're in good company. For example, Alexander the Great felt the same way.
another fallacy... not even close to a reasonable analogy, yeah the US government and them have so much in common?

But the principle is both simple and valid: Don't pick up the world's tar babies, because you get yourself stuck. Doesn't mean intervention is never a good idea, but it does mean you should be critical about which conflicts to intervene in. And in most cases it's best to stay out.
No one with brains is questioning this. People without brains use it as their only anti-war argument. The truth is much further to the nuance and complexity side of the spectrum than most brains are even capable of handling, even mine unless I decided to devote my life to this subject. That tends to make people act stupidly, ergo the modern war debate.
Do you even understand what an estimate is?
:rolleyes:
It's no crime to consciously make optimistic assumptions to lower your cost-estimate. As long as they're reasonable enough to offer plausible deniability. And that's what every sane capitalist will do if you offer him effectively a cost-plus contract.
By subconsciously I meant that humans are naturally wired to do such things even when they think they are being divine. Once again if you can prove an intentional crime that would be interesting. Or are you simply saying that the world's most powerful nation also happens to be human that acts in ways we would expect based on evolutionary biology. I don't think anyone disagrees that this goes on at some level, but it's tough to prove, and tough to quantify the damage from.
Which is why every sane consumer wants to avoid those contracts. Including the pre-WWII US government
Financial innovation within a liberal democracy, now that's an interesting topic. Yes financial competition is always a challenge, how would you manipulate military spending system if you had the full democratic powers available to you?
 
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what planet are you on?

I told UWdude I'd respond to his post if he apologized to everyone for accusing me of racism and the JREF of being "packed with bigots and racists" in that horrid exchange that ended up in AAH earlier. For some reason he simply replied with "Go have fun with yourself" (the mean way) I thought it was a very noble gesture on my part, really. Meh...

Anyway I was going say that for any country that gets invaded by the U.S., I'll show you a country with similar resistance to the supposed "hegemony" and reasonably similar resources that was not invaded. The weight of these alternative considerations has not overweighed the idealistic notions of war for a long time and it were conclusively proven to happen it would be one of the darkest moments in modern history. I understand why the people who believe it has happened are so out of their bloody minds.
 
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Korea has been partitioned for more than half a century. To refuse to recognize that fact is plain silly, that goes for South Korea and Japan too.

I'm not sure what you mean by recognition in this case. You seem to be conflating two distinct meanings. The US of course does recognize, in a de facto manner, that Pyongyang's goverment is in charge of North Korea and they hold it responsible for what goes on within its borders. I expect that maps of the world in the US are marked with a border through the peninsula with one side designated Republic of Korea and one side designated Democratic People's Republic of Korea (no doubt the ROK is decorated with flowers and the DPRK is decorated with skull and crossbones to help out Sarah Palin as well ;) )

So the US does not refuse to recognize that fact. What you seem to imply is that recognition of that fact leads, automatically, to full de jure diplomatic recognition and bilateral relations with embassies and American ambassadors swanning off to the Revolutionary Opera to watch Sea of Blood in some apparachik's Cuckoo.

You also say that failure to elide the two is childish or vengeful on the part of the US but this fails to appreciate that diplomatic recognition and the recognition of sovereignty of a state is not always a simple matter. You say that Japan and South Korea are also childish in their refusal to recognize the government of North Korea.

Well, a few things:

In a non-childish sense with-holding recognition of a country's government can be an important bargaining chip. In the case of a country like Japan, it still wants to see North Korea resolve, to its satisfaction, the issue of North Korea's abduction of Japanese citizens. Now, maybe North Korea will "play nice" if Japan recognizes but then again maybe it won't. Why does North Korea get an automatic privelege for potentially nothing in exchange. As it happens Japan already give North Korea plenty of food aid and receive Tae Po Dong missiles in return as they're fired overhead. This isn't the behaviour that Japan thinks is worth rewarding. Is it childish to refuse to indulge the petulant bad behaviour of others?

With South Korea and the US there are some difficult issues of the maritime border. South Korea claims the Northern-Limit-Line is the maritime border whereas the North claims the line should be drawn further south. This issue probably makes a formal peace treaty difficult.

By the way, technically Russia and Japan are still at war since the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and seized the north-east islands off Hokkaido and no formal peace treaty was ever signed.

As for diplomatic non-recognition, as you surely know the US doesn't recognize Taiwan (Republic of China) nor does almost anyone else even though everybody knows it is a sovereign independent country. Do you think the entire international community is childish? If so it hardly seems fair to single out the US. Pakistan refuses to recognize Jammu and Kashmir even though everybody knows it belongs to India. Similarly, your pals in Iran (I know, I am just being cheeky! :D) refuse to recognize Israel even though it has been there for as long, if not longer, than North Korea. Pretty much the whole of the rest of the Middle East is the same and there Israel doesn't even appear on maps of the world.

I am not trying to change the subject with this I am merely showing that the non-recognition in a diplomatic sense between the US and North Korea is not as outlandish as you imply. I also think that it is a mistake to think that the default position for those who occupy a certain amount of land is recognition from everyone. If you think it is the default then it must be a principle applied universally. This can have knock-on problems. When the Taliban appeared in the south of Afghanistan, Pakistan said it would recognize the Taliban if they controlled X amount of the country. I forget which cities they were expected to control but they went on to fight wars of conquest against Herat and Mazar-i-Sharif and ended up with the recognition of a total of three countries - Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

Then the US goes on to break the agreements it made, because of Congressional opposition. Or because the new administration doesn't want to ratify it.

Well, this was bad I agree but you have to remember that in this case we are talking about a Clinton administration making promises and subsequently having its deal scuppered by a newly-elected Republican-controlled Congress who didn't want to fund a country that was still, with fairly good reason, on the state-terrorist list for blowing up a South Korean passenger plane with an onboard bomb and trying to assassinate the entire South Korean cabinet in Burma.

Unfortunately things don't run as smoothly in governments with a division of powers when compared to totalitarian regimes such as the DPRK. The Agreed Framework made bilateral recognition up to the Ambassadorial level a final step not an early step. Again, I don't have problem with asking your enemy to work for what it wants from you.

http://www.kedo.org/pdfs/AgreedFramework.pdf

An important thing about the framework is that Clinton aides did walk around saying that they expected North Korea to collapse any day soon anyway which may or may not have been some kind of assurance to the Republicans that it was worth making this deal but at the same time this was happening Kim Jong-il put North Korea on a war-footing with its Military First policy. And, of course, they repeatedly violated the framework deal and finally walked out of the NPT. Again, I don't see why it is the responsibility of the US to go running after Kim Jong-il and promise him goodies and again, I think that the petulance comes from North Korea.

Why would they do this? Why does North Korea scupper the peace plans? Are they, as Joey might say, insane? Isn't it really the US that's insane?

Well, no. North Korea is not insane and the US hasn't forced them to be nasty. The truth is that North Korea's regime can't survive without an external threat. It no longer has an economy to speak of so it can't claim that its regime will improve the lives of the North more than the government in the South. All it can do is show that it has something else that the South doesn't and that is a determination to protect the Korean race from the wicked Yankees. In this he has some intellectual weight from professors of linguistics at MIT - ;)

[That's the theory according to B.R Myers anyway]

For this reason I would like to see what would happen if the US offered a peace treaty on a plate.


Every country in the world knows North Korea is a pain. That's no reason for the US to break its promises. Just don't promise anything that might be too costly.


The Korean war ended 58 years ago. Just give the North a peace treaty recognizing the status quo. What they do with it (wine or sign) is their problem.

Again, I think this is a conflation of two senses of "recognition". If some International Relations experts could help out though I'd be grateful.

Here's a kind-of thought experiment. What do you think the North would do if a peace treaty were offered? I think I know as according to the theory spelt out above the North would have to find a way of rejecting it and blaming it on the Yankees. I think they have already done this anyway.

But anyway, if South Korea met to sign a peace treaty with the North would the North agree to it?

The bolded part is the rootcause of much of the issue. The US government is scared to death of losing face. And that's stupid. Why would you care if Kim Jong-il says the US is grovelling? Nobody in the rest of the world is gonna take him seriously for it, and even if some do, it won't have any consequences.

North Koreans care. This is how Kim jong-il derives his legitimacy. It must be seen that he is constantly winning against the Yankees. This is why the North will risk war and try to disrupt things such as shelling an island or sinking a South Korean naval vessel. Being in conflict is useful for him. Without conflict his people would be asking why there is no food for themselves and why the Dear Leader can't give them what they want.

Consider cost-benefit. Diplomatic recognition of North Korea and a peace treaty is basically free for the US. So just give it to Kim. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, it didn't cost anything anyway. And either way, it will make a good impression with China.

Well, okay, I'd like to see it tried.
 
Anyone who reads the wiki page on the situation will feel conflicted on some level or perhaps they are inhuman. Obama has made a series of progressive moves but these people are too stupid to accept the terms. Do you have a coherent argument as to why the terms that were offered by the WH should have been rejected? I honestly think they really want to move on this issue and are fretting more than you but understand more about it. Luckily we can pretty much see what the WH thinks about anything quite easily these days.

Is it possible that they just don't want to go through the stage of serious poverty for the working class that other poor countries such as chile, russia, south korea and various others had to suffer through during their transition from left-wing to right-wing economics? Is it possible that they don't want to have to put up with a large increase in wealth inequality? Perhaps they simply don't like being told that they have to adhere to a certain set of economic ideologies? Maybe they're still a bit bitter about that time the US funded and trained an invasion force to attack their country? Did they ever get an apology for that? Or maybe, just maybe, Castro is slightly annoyed about all those times the CIA tried to assassinate him?

I think that when you reduce the argument to stating that your political opponent is stupid or insane and declare it as fact and the only reason for being opposed, when there are several other perfectly legitimate reasons, you fail to address the argument properly.
 
Is it possible that they just don't want to go through the stage of serious poverty for the working class that other poor countries such as chile, russia, south korea and various others had to suffer through during their transition from left-wing to right-wing economics?

They are going through serious poverty. Under Communism.

Is it possible that they don't want to have to put up with a large increase in wealth inequality?

They are going through wealth inequality. Under Communism.

Perhaps they simply don't like being told that they have to adhere to a certain set of economic ideologies?

They are being told they have to adhere to an economic ideology; Communism.

Maybe they're still a bit bitter about that time the US funded and trained an invasion force to attack their country? Did they ever get an apology for that? Or maybe, just maybe, Castro is slightly annoyed about all those times the CIA tried to assassinate him?

The US was at war with Communism. Communism lost. Forgive and forget.
 
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Those are radically different considerations from anything I was talking about. I wouldn't argue against these incentives existing and dubious estimates occuring, and have not. Strawmandering, really. The permanent war for profit conspiracy is quite different and relatively popular, I had someone spring it on me last night. Yes it also helps with their population control goals. Yes 9/11 was part of the plan for permanent war etc. There are dozens of variations on this theme.

Blah blah blah....conspiracy.... blah blah blah.


whether or not they have the "right" doesn't much change whether or not they are going to do what they think is right, namely prevent an insane government from ruining the lives of more people. Is this somehow a case that the US is being evil in this situation? I am not convinced.

If you think Iran poses no danger to the world I think we have bigger problems to contend with than facts.
Wait your policy of what? A foreign policy that is as fantastical as market fundamentalism? Yeah the people that won't be starving to death thanks to the WFP are happy you aren't in charge of anything. As the Economist put it hours ago "Their government is perfectly capable of using starvation as a bargaining chip. But neither that, nor the likelihood that some food aid would be stolen, are excuses for giving nothing. They are reasons to try to negotiate decent monitoring arrangements"

I was talking about permanent war for profit fed by lies which is a conspiracy theory. If you talk it down to being about subconscious biases in humans that sometimes leads to slightly skewed data like contract costs, you're no longer addressing this theory.


So the evidence that the world's superpower gets into it a lot is evidence that all of those conflicts were immoral, preventable or insane?


It's sarcasm because it's the most easily made criticism which happens to also mean nothing. It's such a simplistic, cartoonish idea. Yeah everything would be fine if we just picked up and went home. Are you looking forward to voting for Ron Paul?

So is there context nuance, and perhaps yes even some self-interested inconsistency in how the U.S. treats other counties? Obviously it's the global superpower juggling dozens of problem countries. It's just sad to paint this picture without the nuance and context. Yes if the U.S. wasn't a big greedy moron we'd all be in a worldwide hippie commune at this point.

If the incentives are skewing people subconsciously, that is one thing. Intentional conspiracies are another. Telling a narrative or selling a story in regards to some of these questions is unhelpful, if you can prove a crime that would be interesting.
Do subconscious cognitive biases affect policy? Obviously. Is a manufactured permanent war for profit a CT? Yes, so stop trying to make my problems with the CTs out there seem like a misunderstanding of real issues which I obviously have no problem exploring.



blah blah blah ....conspiracy theory.... blah blah blah ....Ron Paul....blah blah blah ...hippy commune....conspiracies....CT...blah...CTs


lol wut? So because conspiracy theories happen we shouldn't call them conspiracy theories?

Very poor attempt at proving the U.S. is acting immorally here.


I asked you what extent is the crime of the banking scandal? Exactly who are the people, names, companies, who should be in jail?



You tried to spin an insane lie that Blair only talked about the "oil conspiracy theory" because he was trying to smear inquisitors. Since what he was defending against actually was a conspiracy theory, this entire conversation has been a regrettable waste of time because you will never concede this.



blah...conspiracy theories....blah...conspiracy theories...blah blah blah...”oil conspiracy theory”...blah...conspiracy theory...blah blah blah.....
 
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They are going through serious poverty. Under Communism.

Jamaicans living on an island right next to cuba are going through worse poverty, under capitalism.

They are going through wealth inequality. Under Communism.

Cuba has a gini coefficient of ~30, while jamaica under capitalism has ~45. USA has ~49.

They are being told they have to adhere to an economic ideology; Communism.

Currently, by cubans. Why should americans determine the economic system of cuba rather than cubans? If the regime doesn't have popular support, we'll see demonstrations soon enough, but is that what we're seeing?

The US was at war with Communism. Communism lost. Forgive and forget.

If I chose not to "forgive and forget" the time a country tried to invade my country, and the times it tried to have me assassinated, would that make me "insane"?
 
I asked you what extent is the crime of the banking scandal? Exactly who are the people, names, companies, who should be in jail?

Do you have no curiosity to find out for yourself?


You tried to spin an insane lie that Blair only talked about the "oil conspiracy theory" because he was trying to smear inquisitors.

I see you are now trying to smear me with implications of mental illness.


Do you have any evidence that Blair was doing anything else than attempting to smear critics of his "conspiracy theory" warmongering, along with all his other warmongering lies?

He was using the phrase "conspiracy theory" as a political silencer and put-down, not as a technical description, in exactly the same way that, a decade previously, politicians were name-calling people "loony left" as alternative to rational, informed debate.
 
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If the regime doesn't have popular support, we'll see demonstrations soon enough, but is that what we're seeing?

Just like there were so many anti-government demonstration in Stalin's USSR? I guess everybody just loved him.
 
Just like there were so many anti-government demonstration in Stalin's USSR? I guess everybody just loved him.

Stalin had a much more dangerous record of brutal repression, and was propped up first by a remembered hatred of the czars, and later by the second world war. The cubans didn't like batista, so they overthrew him, but hatred for batista is what, 50 years old? You'd think we'd at least see some popular demonstrations by now if the cubans genuinely wanted to undergo shock therapy and enjoy some every-man-for-himself economics.
 
Chomsky has more to say on the bin Laden thing. Apparently a lot of people from the "Third World" wrote to thank him while the major response from the US was hysterical infuriation.

He says that much of what they wrote bore no resemblance to what was said in his article.

I've no idea what he's talking about. The only criticisms I've ever read of Chomsky have been measured, rational and logical addresses of the issues he's raised. Maybe this bozo ass-clown terrorist lover should go back to his day job, linguistics, and stay out of political discussions which are for professional opinionators on messageboards!! :mad:

http://www.zcommunications.org/there-is-much-more-to-say-by-noam-chomsky
 
the revolution is alive and well in cuba.

Sure is, complete with political prisons, one-party state, the beloved leader passing the country to his brother as if it were his private property, 15-year sentences for giving people "illegal" internet access, etc., etc.
 
I think that when you reduce the argument to stating that your political opponent is stupid or insane and declare it as fact and the only reason for being opposed, when there are several other perfectly legitimate reasons, you fail to address the argument properly.

I think if anyone pretends anything else is the case about these people they're fooling themselves and engaging in apologia for criminal idiots. Just because it's possible nitpick and manage to make an attractive apologia for their self-imposed plight, doesn't mean that that argument holds water when viewed from an objective standpoint.

Case in point go find a sampling of religious accomodationalists (tone trolls) that think the "new atheists" are scum, and you will find amongst them a fair number of weirdo political accommodationalists, like Chomsky.

"I don't join the New Atheists. So, for example, I wouldn't have the arrogance to lecture some mother who hopes to see her dying child in heaven -- that's none of my business ultimately. I won't lecture her on the philosophy of science."

Yeah Noam, I see atheists doing this all the time :rolleyes: I really do hate the way he tries to make a point so it sounds really stupid and pathetic and later goes, "You idiots, I didn't mean it like that, I was in a rush, it was early after the event, the press was pressuring me for a response I was hungover, my dog ate it, the aliens are scrambling my brainwaves"
 
I really do hate the way he tries to make a point so it sounds really stupid and pathetic and later goes, "You idiots, I didn't mean it like that, I was in a rush, it was early after the event, the press was pressuring me for a response I was hungover, my dog ate it, the aliens are scrambling my brainwaves"


What you "hate", Joey, is stuff that doesn't confirm your world view, formed by what corporate media tells you, and suggests that you are being lied to. Frankly, you have disqualified yourself as a commentator on geopolitics when you didn't get what Jane was referring to with the "Great Game". You should start listening to what informed people tell you in this thread, instead of stomping your feet. You might actually learn something.
 
Sure is, complete with political prisons, one-party state, the beloved leader passing the country to his brother as if it were his private property, 15-year sentences for giving people "illegal" internet access, etc., etc.

How fortunate Americans must feel, to live in a country complete with a political prison, one-ideology state, the beloved leader passing the country to his son as if it were his personal property, life sentences for giving people "illegal" plants, etc.

(NB: the second 'etc' is unnecessary.)
 
What you "hate", Joey, is stuff that doesn't confirm your world view, formed by what corporate media tells you, and suggests that you are being lied to. Frankly, you have disqualified yourself as a commentator on geopolitics when you didn't get what Jane was referring to with the "Great Game". You should start listening to what informed people tell you in this thread, instead of stomping your feet. You might actually learn something.

Who are these "informed people"? The Truthers and Castro supporters?
 

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