Montreal School Shooting

[Morrigan]

I've learned not to assume the gender of a poster by their avatar (especially anime ones), so forgive me for making the wrong assumption (based on forum demographics). I should have been more explicit in post #44 but I do try to pick my words carefully.

All right.

The significant difference is the way you expressed your mockery. You can call Kimveer Gill a pathetic loser all you want to vent your anger,

I wasn't venting any anger. I was just mocking him for being a loser, which he was. And I added that it was a good thing that he wasn't an efficient killer.

The rest is just you, again, reading into things that weren't there (with all your own highlighting of "can be perceived", "euphemized", "implying", "can be viewed", etc.).
Perhaps you don't have a morbid sense of humour like I do, but don't go assuming all kinds of nasty motives on me because of that. I thought the "it's a good thing" part was disclaimer enough, but I guess people can't help their moralist instincts...

 

[Jorghnassen]

So handguns are illegal in Canada but not that giant rifle from the pictures? I wasn't aware...

Handguns are not illegal, they are restricted weapons (so you can buy one, but it's complicated, and what you can do with it is tightly legislated).

 

[Jorghnassen]

I wasn't venting any anger. I was just mocking him for being a loser, which he was. And I added that it was a good thing that he wasn't an efficient killer.

But what was the point of mocking him in the first place, if not to vent?
That being said, I laughed at the Norm MacDonald interview on the Daily Show, and though it was gallows humour, it was actually funny (especially because Jon Stewart was squirming next to him, though you can tell the audience was uncomfortable at the first mention of Steve Irwin).

 

[ReFLeX]

Handguns are not illegal, they are restricted weapons (so you can buy one, but it's complicated, and what you can do with it is tightly legislated).

Oh. Because whenever I would come back over the border there would be a sign saying "Handguns Prohibited."

 

[Jorghnassen]

Oh. Because whenever I would come back over the border there would be a sign saying "Handguns Prohibited."

Relevant F.A.Q.

 

[Morrigan]

But what was the point of mocking him in the first place, if not to vent?

Er, to amuse myself? And hopefully others.

 

[Mishka Zaznaykin]

How do Canadian gun control laws compare to those of the USA?

 

[Badger]

How do Canadian gun control laws compare to those of the USA?

In a nutshell "They're stricter".

The FAQ's linked to by Jorghnassen provide a real good overview of the Canadian side of it.

 

[Mishka Zaznaykin]

Thanks Badger. I lived in Toronto many years ago and it seemed in general that crime was less of a problem there than one would expect for a city of comparable size in the USA.

 

[Huntster]

So handguns are illegal in Canada but not that giant rifle from the pictures? I wasn't aware...

So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?

Is it somehow more legitimate to be murdered by a registered rifle than one that is not properly registered?

If the rifle was properly registered, and the firearm registration system was justified under a crime fighting argument, are the authorities in a higher plane of responsibility if the murder weapon is registered?

 

[Huntster]

....I can literally guarantee that the "solutions" that Ottawa will continue to offer will be akin to the 1989 gun control fiasco. In fact, I'm sure the liberals are already bleating that the 1989 law "didn't go far enough."....

Story:

"There's a horrible sense of loss in the city of Montreal, the families are devastated . . . and we need to show introspection, and a calm, intelligent approach for our country. We have tough laws in this country when it comes to firearms, but we need always to be prepared to recalibrate and make sure we have the emphasis right."

The man in charge of administering Canada's gun laws, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, left few hints about what the government might be considering.....

So, each and every time some Bozo commits mass murder like this (with registered weapons, no less), the law is guaranteed to "ratchet up" more?

....Again, I suggest violating the "rights" of the few clear and obvious kooks by picking them up before they lose their marbles completely rather than violating the rights of millions of peaceful firearms owners by playing silly, meaningless, and fruitless gun control games.

Story:

"But I can tell you it is the time to gather all the facts in terms of what has happened here and to look at what can be done on terms of legislation to prevent an unbalanced individual . . . from being able in any way acquire any type of firearm and that's exactly what our plan is to do."

Let's see........................:

1) Gun registry................check

2) Mass murderer publishes his "unbalanced" state on web blog for all (including authorites) to read.........................check

3) Mass murderer commits mass murder with registered gun..................check

4) Government is not held responsible for the obvious..................check

5) Law abiding citizens will have to undergo further firearms restrictions..................check

6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.

 

[ReFLeX]

So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?

Yes!

 

[Morrigan]

6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.

Hold on a sec. Have you actually seen the guy's blog? There was absolutely nothing a government of any free country could have done based on its content.
If you aren't implying that the government should have done, or been able to do, something about it, then disregard.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?

Yes!

One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.

Hold on a sec. Have you actually seen the guy's blog?

Nope. However, I have read quotes from his blog:

............On a Web site devoted to Goth culture, Gill said he was born July 9, 1981, in Montreal, was 6 feet, 1 inch tall and of East-Indian heritage.

Gill wrote in his blog on the site www.vampirefreaks.com that he liked guns and his trenchcoat and would prefer to die: "Like Romeo and Juliet -- or -- in a hail of gunfire."........

....On his English-language blog, under the "Fatality666" name he used on the Web site, Gill posted 79 photographs, several showing him brandishing guns and a hunting knife.

One photo shows the tall, thin man dressed in a black trenchcoat and holding an automatic weapon. It carries the caption: "Ready for Action."

"Anger and hatred simmers within me," reads another photo caption.....

....He professes to hate all people, especially "jocks" and "preps," and laments that bullies harass Goth kids.....

There was absolutely nothing a government of any free country could have done based on its content.

And therein lies the problem.

If you aren't implying that the government should have done, or been able to do, something about it, then disregard.

Also from that article:

...."We can obviously just observe that laws we have didn't prevent this tragedy, which is why our government will be ... looking to make our laws more effective."....

I submit that instead of punishing the rest of society with more restrictive firearms laws (which Gill observed, anyway), perhaps it's time to look at a different way to neutralize the danger from sick people.

 

[Morrigan]

Um, many angsty teenagers write all sorts of rambling like the one you quoted. Saying "I'd love to die in a hail of fire", "Hatred simmers within me", "I hate jocks" - I've seen far worse just by browsing ordinary forums. None of those people grabbed a gun and shot anyone. Because most times, it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager. If we started taking these kinds of words seriously everytime, we'd have no one to actually do any work on real criminals.

In a free society, you can't arrest someone for words like that. You can arrest them only if they make explicit threats (which these weren't). If you think this is a "problem", then obviously you think freedom itself is a "problem".

 

[Huntster]

Um, many angsty teenagers write all sorts of rambling like the one you quoted. Saying "I'd love to die in a hail of fire", "Hatred simmers within me", "I hate jocks" - I've seen far worse just by browsing ordinary forums....

The majority of people don't write such things publically. This is good.

That means the number of people to scrutinized is limited to the fools who do so.

....None of those people grabbed a gun and shot anyone....

Gill did.

Eric Harris did:

In 1996, Eric Harris created a private website on America Online. The original site was set up to host Doom levels that he and Klebold had created, mainly for friends. Harris began a primitive blog on the site, which included jokes and small journal entries concerning his thoughts on parents, school, and friends. By the end of the year, the site contained instructions on how to cause mischief, as well as instructions on how to make explosives, and logs of the mischief he and Klebold were causing. Beginning in early 1997, the blog postings began to show the first signs of Harris' ever-growing anger against society.

Harris' site had few visitors, and did not become an issue until late 1997, when Jefferson County Sheriff's Office investigator Michael Guerra was notified of the site after the parents of Harris' former friend, Brooks Brown, discovered that Harris was posting death threats aimed at their son. Guerra discovered the website also contained violent threats directed at the students and teachers who attended Columbine High School. Other material included blurbs Harris had written concerning his hatred of society in general and his desire to kill those who annoyed him. As the date of the shooting neared, Harris also began noting the completion of pipe bombs on his site, as well as a gun count and "hit list" of individuals he wished to target, although it never mentioned his overall plot.[3] As Harris had admitted to having explosives, Guerra decided to write a draft affidavit for a search warrant of the Harris household, but it was never filed. The existence of the affidavit was concealed by Jefferson County, and not revealed to the public until September 2001, as the direct result of an investigation by the television show 60 Minutes.

After the release of the affidavit, a series of grand jury investigations were launched into the cover-up activities of the Jefferson County officials. The investigation revealed that high ranking officials of Jefferson County had come together a few days after the massacre to discuss the release of the affidavit to the public. It was decided that because the affidavit's contents lacked the necessary probable cause to have supported the issuance of a search warrant for the Harris household by a judge, it would be best not to disclose the affidavit's existence at an upcoming press conference, although the actual conversations and points of discussion were never actually revealed to anyone other than the Grand Jury members. Following the press conference, the original Guerra documents disappeared. In September 1999, a Jefferson County investigator failed to find the documents during a secret search of the county's computer system. A second attempt in late 2000 found copies of the document within the Jefferson County archives. The documents were reconstructed and released to the public in September 2001, but the original documents are still missing. The final grand jury investigation was released in September 2004.[4]

....Because most times, it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager. If we started taking these kinds of words seriously everytime, we'd have no one to actually do any work on real criminals....

So, because "most times it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager," the smart thing to do is restrict firearms freedoms to the rest of Canada's 30 million citizens?

In a free society, you can't arrest someone for words like that. You can arrest them only if they make explicit threats (which these weren't). If you think this is a "problem", then obviously you think freedom itself is a "problem".

Too much freedom is a problem. There are plenty of firearms restrictions, registrations, and controls on firearms in Canada.

It's time for some idiot restrictions, registrations, and controls.

 

[ReFLeX]

One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?

They look of similar size to me. I don't think the rifle he used was either of those.

 

[Almo]

Well, I just learned a bit about Canadian gun law. This dude had to wait like a year to get his restricted weapons, and had to take a safety course. There was a background check, which includes more than just criminal record.

As far as I can tell, the system did the best it could. Some people just go "a little funny in the head" and kill people. It's one of the risks associated with living. The fact is, in certain cases, you can't stop someone from committing a crime. All you can do is clean up the mess afterward.

The sentiments in this post are held by my wife Trena as well, who was at Dawson when the shootings happened. So it's not from lack of proximity that I say these things. She would have been in the atrium at the school, had her teacher let them go for break at the correct time.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?

They look of similar size to me.....

The lever action Winchester Model 94 trapper is 34” long, weighs 6 lbs, and is chambered in 30-30 Win., 44 Mag., 357 Mag, or 45 Colt.

The M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle is 57” long, weighs 32.5 lbs., and only fires the 50 BMG round.

Both are deadly weapons under different conditions.

I don't think the rifle he used was either of those.

Correct. I can’t seem to find an official statement as to what model weapons Gill misused, but there is this:

...Gill is believed to have been carrying at least three weapons: a handgun, a 12-gauge shotgun and a semi-automatic or automatic rifle....

My point is that the size of the rifle is meaningless. Different rifle configurations exist for rifles designed for different uses.

All can be misused efficiently to commit evil acts.