Monroe Institute

[Resume]

We may find that there are limitations to what can be done and we're left with little more than parlor entertainment.

Let's first see if anything can be done.

First.

 

[Stray Cat]

We may find that there are limitations to what can be done

Indeed!, the main limitation being that so far, none of this nonsense has ever been shown to work.

and we're left with little more than parlor entertainment.

Or "Magicians" as they've been known for centuries.

 

[dlorde]

... It could have just been a hallucination or a lucid dream based on a premeditated thought of what an OOB feels like, but it felt a lot more real.

Lucid dreams I have had had a hyper-real feel to them; they're extremely vivid and memorable. Nevertheless, given the content, they were clearly unreal.

 

[tsig]

Resume, you asked what is to be gained by bending spoons even if it were possible. I don't see any immediate benefit but it opens up possibilities. The double slit experiment (quantum physics) seems to point to the possibility that elemental particles react to observation. The phantom DNA effect also seems to indicate we may be able to influence how matter behaves. If we can bend spoons, can we apply that skill set to other things? Could it be used to help in the healing professions? Might we be able to focus that energy on tumors, for example? I don't have any answers, just possibilities.

For the more materially minded another component of the MC2 program is bringing group focus to influence the roll of dice. I haven't heard of any classes being able to fully control the numbers that show up on the dice but I've heard they can consistently improve the odds of a given combination being rolled.

If seedlings can germinate faster through focused energy, perhaps there are applications for enhancing agricultural output.

We may find that there are limitations to what can be done and we're left with little more than parlor entertainment.

Hilited the operational words.

 

[jfish]

Stray cat, how do you know it has not been shown to work? Have you ever attended an MC2 program and proven that it was a hoax? You offer a hypothesis that it is nonsense but offer no proof. Nothing wrong with questioning whether something is real but to conclude something isn't real without investigating isn't very objective. It reminds me of some forms of religious faith.

 

[Stray Cat]

Stray cat, how do you know it has not been shown to work?

Because of the simple fact that it has not been shown to work.
If you claim it has, then show it.

Have you ever attended an MC2 program and proven that it was a hoax?

"Hoax" is your word not mine.

You offer a hypothesis that it is nonsense but offer no proof.

Hello jfish, let me introduce you to my friend burden of proof.
He's best friends with Hypothesis

When you've learned what these words mean and how to apply them, we can talk science.

Nothing wrong with questioning whether something is real but to conclude something isn't real without investigating isn't very objective.

Are you aware of my investigations into claims of the paranormal?
No, I didn't think so (as psychic ability is pure bunk)

Yes, I've spent a lifetime questioning whether certain (paranormal) things are real... so far, not a single one of them has been... Now maybe yours is different, but until you can provide some evidence to back up these things that have NEVER been shown to be real, I can dismiss the claims as easily as you make them... The burden of proof is in your hands.

It reminds me of some forms of religious faith.

I don't base my life on faith, I base it on evidence.... got any?

 

[23_Tauri]

Resume, you asked what is to be gained by bending spoons even if it were possible. I don't see any immediate benefit but it opens up possibilities. The double slit experiment (quantum physics) seems to point to the possibility that elemental particles react to observation. The phantom DNA effect also seems to indicate we may be able to influence how matter behaves. If we can bend spoons, can we apply that skill set to other things? Could it be used to help in the healing professions? Might we be able to focus that energy on tumors, for example? I don't have any answers, just possibilities.

We used to have "god in the gaps", now we have "quantum in the gaps".

For the more materially minded another component of the MC2 program is bringing group focus to influence the roll of dice. I haven't heard of any classes being able to fully control the numbers that show up on the dice but I've heard they can consistently improve the odds of a given combination being rolled.

And you believe them? You believe in telekinesis purely through hearsay? Really?

If seedlings can germinate faster through focused energy, perhaps there are applications for enhancing agricultural output.

Please explain what you mean by 'energy' in this sentence and how it could have an influence on a distant object (i.e. a plausible mechanism). You could use the Bradford Hill criteria here to give your hypothesis more credibility, if you like.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

And welcome to the forum!

 

[Stray Cat]

And you believe them? You believe in telekinesis purely through hearsay? Really?

Yes, I don't think the phrase "you can do anything if you put your mind to it" extends to telekinesis.

Please explain what you mean by 'energy' in this sentence and how it could have an influence on a distant object (i.e. a plausible mechanism). You could use the Bradford Hill criteria here to give your hypothesis more credibility, if you like.

Sounds to me like more W.C. Levengood guff and we both know how much success he had with his (Patented) magical energy to germinate seeds.

 

[Hellbound]

The double slit experiment (quantum physics) seems to point to the possibility that elemental particles react to observation.

No. Not in the way you're thinking, anyway. It shows no such thing.

Particles don't react to being observed. THat's the cart before the horse. The issue is that there's no way possible to observe a particle without interacting with it in some manner. Even just watching it means photons are being bounced off the thing, for example.

Particles don't magically change their behavior just because someone "observes" them due to any mystical effect. They change because the acts that are a part of that observing (using any known or theoretically devised method that might be possible, based on current knowledge) causes a change in the particles behavior.

 

[Lusikka]

I am sorry for the delay, but I have not read this thread for a time.

I can't get the paper to load.
Could you quote from it, please, so we can get an idea of what it's about?

Can you see if there is traffic on your line? The PDF
http://www.tricksterbook.com/truzzi/ZS-Issues-PDFs/ZeteticScholarNos12-13.pdf
is really big and requires exceptionally long time to load. If you see traffic on the line, then it is loading and you have only to wait.

I had a lot of work to copy the article to a better readable Word file because the quality of the scanning is so bad the article cannot be copied without a lot of text missing. There became 29 tightly written pages. I can send to you the file privately if needed.

To quote the article is very difficult for me because of its length and very many details. Truzzi and Randi were then fellow skeptics and during the project Truzzi partly knew what was happening. Truzzi hoped that Randi would be like a gentleman in publicizing Project Alpha and Randi promised that but did not do so. There is also the funny story of a counter-hoax against Randi so that he gave his "Uri Award" to a phony project.

There is also a smaller PDF file that allows you to know what parapsychologists said but they are too much defending themselves in my opinion.
http://www.aiprinc.org/para-c05_Thalbourne_1995.pdf

 

[jfish]

I just finisher reading Dr. Eben Alexander's book Proof Of Heaven. (He was the cover story in a Newsweek article a few weeks ago.) Rather remarkable account of his near death experience from bacterial menegitis. Prior to his NDE he had a fairly typical view that NDEs were explained by natural processes in the brain. His opinion changed dramatically after his NDE. As a noted neurosurgeon with an impressive CV his opinion carries more weight than the average NDEr. In the appendix he lists 9 possible hypotheses that might explain his experience (other than consciousness can exist independently of the brain). Each one of them were found to not be credible explanations. Also he had an after-the-fact validation that his experience was real. A woman who was in his NDE turned out to be his sister whom he had never met (he was adopted as a baby). She had died prior to his NDE.

 

[Resume]

Prior to his NDE he had a fairly typical view that NDEs were explained by natural processes in the brain. His opinion changed dramatically after his NDE. As a noted neurosurgeon with an impressive CV his opinion carries more weight than the average NDEr.

No, it doesn't. Like any claimant his opinion makes no difference; it's the weight of the evidence that matters.

Also he had an after-the-fact validation that his experience was real. A woman who was in his NDE turned out to be his sister whom he had never met (he was adopted as a baby). She had died prior to his NDE.

You have no idea what was retrofitted to fit his episode. None.

 

[Pixel42]

Thread on Alexander's book: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245522

 

[Resume]

Also, this: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/proof-of-heaven/

 

[jfish]

It has been almost a year since I last visited this forum. Some interesting experiences to share with my skeptic friends. I traveled to Peru to spend 2 weeks in a jungle ayahuasca healing retreat. While it was an interesting trip (in more ways than one), I can't say I obtained any "proof" of anything paranormal. More recently I traveled to the Rhine Center in Durham, NC to participate in a "psi" gathering. The subject of spoon bending has come up in the past in this forum I thought I would comment on the spoon bending component of this program. A bin of commercial grade spoons was passed around and everyone took one. We were instructed to gather mental energy, pass it down our arms to the spoon and then command the spoon to bend. There were about 30 people in the room each attempting this. Through multiple efforts my spoon did not bend. However, I observed others around me having success. By the end of that exercise I would estimate that 40% of the attendees had bent at least one spoon. The woman next to me was particularly adept repeatedly taking another spoon from the bin and bending it. I wish I had asked her to attempt it with my spoon and me holding it. I would have like to see if she could do it by cupping her hands around mine and bending my spoon. Perhaps there will be another opportunity in the coming year to try that.

 

[steenkh]

Jfish, are you aware what goes on at spoon-bending parties? That people bend their spoons using ordinary physical force?

Given a sufficient degree of ecstasy, the spoon-benders might not be aware of it, or they are not aware of just how much force they apply, when they think they are hardly applying force at all. Others are well aware that they are bending the spoons with their hands, but they do it covertly in an effort to please, and not to be apart when everybody else seem to have success.

 

[dlorde]

... Others are well aware that they are bending the spoons with their hands, but they do it covertly in an effort to please, and not to be apart when everybody else seem to have success.

Yes, psychology this applies in many situations. I once took a short bushcraft course, part of which was about paying attention to non-visual senses when in the forest. One of the exercises involved finding your way to a sound source (sticks knocked together) while blindfold (with a seeing partner to prevent nasty accidents). Some of us wandered around quite a while, getting close, then being misled by echoes off the trees; others went almost directly to the sound source.

I was suspicious, and later discovered that the most successful navigators had peeked through the blindfold when they got close enough, partly to save embarrassment, and partly for the kudos of success. For me it was a lesson in how deceptive forest echoes can be at close range; for them - I don't know.

 

[jfish]

I observed some of the participants bending the spoons in their hands but the effort they were exhibiting was far less than what would have been required in normal circumstances. A simple finger pressing on the top of the spoon was sufficient to cause it to bend. The woman sitting next to me also bent a knife at a right angel. This couldn't have been done by disguised muscular effort. The metal seemed to have become much more malleable than normal.

 

[Resume]

I observed some of the participants bending the spoons in their hands but the effort they were exhibiting was far less than what would have been required in normal circumstances. A simple finger pressing on the top of the spoon was sufficient to cause it to bend. The woman sitting next to me also bent a knife at a right angel. This couldn't have been done by disguised muscular effort. The metal seemed to have become much more malleable than normal.

Why are impressed with a simple parlor trick?

 

[dlorde]

I observed some of the participants bending the spoons in their hands but the effort they were exhibiting was far less than what would have been required in normal circumstances. A simple finger pressing on the top of the spoon was sufficient to cause it to bend. The woman sitting next to me also bent a knife at a right angel. This couldn't have been done by disguised muscular effort. The metal seemed to have become much more malleable than normal.

Spoon benders often prepare their props by fatiguing them in advance (by bending them back & forth until the metal is weakened). This makes them very easy to break with minimal force. A close examination (under magnification) should reveal tell-tale tiny fatigue cracks running across the metal at the weak point.

It always puzzled me that the spoons & forks would typically only weaken and break at the thinnest point; if the metal was really softening, it should be possible to easily bend it at any chosen point, and knives should be just as easy.