Monroe Institute

[Pixel42]

Pixel42, i would be interested to read your experiences with exploring OBEs and sleep paralysis. Is there any particular thread where you discuss this on the forums?

There have been several threads on sleep paralysis to which I have contributed, though I didn't have anything to add that wasn't widely known. I had regular bouts of sleep paralysis in my twenties, but the frequency gradually reduced and I haven't had one for decades. At the time I had no idea what it was, I'd actually stopped having them before I even came across the term. The first time it happened I thought I was dying, but I soon discovered that if I just relaxed and went back to sleep I would awake properly at my usual time with no ill effects. I sometimes had the sensation of something pressing down on me and a vague feeling of a presence, but I never had the kind of disturbing hallucinations that others have reported.

It was, in fact, at around the same time - i.e. in my twenties - that I was reading about things like OBEs (along with telepathy, precognition etc) and giving some credence to them but it never occurred to me to connect my experiences of sleep paralysis with OBEs - as steenkh says above sleep paralysis is the exact opposite experience of being shut into your body. I'm genuinely mystified as to how anyone could associate the two phenomena. I've never had what I would describe as an OBE, though I've had the usual dreams of flying etc, and I'd regretfully concluded that all supposed supernatural/paranormal phenomena were fantasies before I was 40.

I have another theory which is linked to all this. That is that if you wake earlier than usual and meditate you should enter a REM state of some kind and get sexually aroused which could cause orgasmic sensations to shoot up into the brain and this is what people mean by "kundalini".

What do you make of the phenomenon called "vibrations" which occur just before the so called astral body seperates from the physical? And does that have any link to auditory phenomena?

I make nothing of any of this.

 

[Sunstar]

LOL

Have you heard of REM atonia? Have you heard of "morning wood"? Have you heard of sexual arousal in REM states? Have you ever woken up aroused?

And wouldn't such orgasmic arousal involve nerve impulses from the genitals to the brain?

And wouldn't people in sleep paralysis have auditory hallucinations?

It is sad i have to type all this out.

 

[Resume]

LOL

Have you heard of REM atonia? Have you heard of "morning wood"? Have you heard of sexual arousal in REM states? Have you ever woken up aroused?

And wouldn't such orgasmic arousal involve nerve impulses from the genitals to the brain?

And wouldn't people in sleep paralysis have auditory hallucinations?
It is sad i have to type all this out.

Could you type just a bit more so your point might be made clearer?

 

[Sunstar]

Says someone that comes out of nowhere with nothing to add to the discussion?

 

[Resume]

Says someone that comes out of nowhere with nothing to add to the discussion?

Been involved in the thread since page one. So again, what are you on about?

 

[tsig]

Says someone that comes out of nowhere with nothing to add to the discussion?

You were asked for a clarification and decided on snark.

 

[Pixel42]

Have you heard of REM atonia? Have you heard of "morning wood"? Have you heard of sexual arousal in REM states? Have you ever woken up aroused?

I've heard of this, yes, but being a woman I've never experienced it.

And wouldn't such orgasmic arousal involve nerve impulses from the genitals to the brain?

Or vice versa, I imagine.

And wouldn't people in sleep paralysis have auditory hallucinations?

People in sleep paralysis do have auditory hallucinations, yes.

It is sad i have to type all this out.

Still waiting for you to type anything resembling a point.

 

[jfish]

I disagree with the statement Pixy posted sayig there is no evidence whatsoever that NDEs are an experience of an afterlife. I don't think that is a logical conclusion based on my research. Here's a slight twist - there is no evidence whatsoever that NDEs aren't an experience of an afterlife. NDErs don't see their experiences as dreams or lucid dreams. What proof is there that a person who has had an NDE was actually in a dream state? It is just as much a hypothesis to say it was a dream as it is to say it was an exposure to an afterlife. Given the constraints of science and our unwillingness to subject people to life threatening experiences in the interest of studying NDEs prospectively, there isn't any evidence to support the proposition that an NDE isn't what the experiencers claim it to be.

 

[Resume]

I disagree with the statement Pixy posted sayig there is no evidence whatsoever that NDEs are an experience of an afterlife. I don't think that is a logical conclusion based on my research. Here's a slight twist - there is no evidence whatsoever that NDEs aren't an experience of an afterlife. NDErs don't see their experiences as dreams or lucid dreams. What proof is there that a person who has had an NDE was actually in a dream state? It is just as much a hypothesis to say it was a dream as it is to say it was an exposure to an afterlife. Given the constraints of science and our unwillingness to subject people to life threatening experiences in the interest of studying NDEs prospectively, there isn't any evidence to support the proposition that an NDE isn't what the experiencers claim it to be.

It's not the same type of hypothesis. There is plenty of observable evidence for dreams, not plenty for an afterlife.

ETA: I don't care how many bare assertions NDE "experiencers" make, they're still bare assertions.

 

[steenkh]

Here's a slight twist - there is no evidence whatsoever that NDEs aren't an experience of an afterlife. NDErs don't see their experiences as dreams or lucid dreams. What proof is there that a person who has had an NDE was actually in a dream state? It is just as much a hypothesis to say it was a dream as it is to say it was an exposure to an afterlife.

There is no proof, of course. Many things are distinctly unlikely, but cannot be proven to be impossible, such as that the physical laws are enforced by billions of little invisible gnomes. The existence of an afterlife would mean that there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of physics; it would mean that something beyond physics is daily interfering with physics through our brains, but that we have not been able to find even the slightest hint of this interaction; it would mean that our concepts of physics that are otherwise extremely well founded is without clue of this interaction being possible.

So, on one hand we have the possibility of physics being completely wrong, and on the other hand we have the possibility of NDE's consisting of quite ordinary physics: what do you think is the more likely?

This argument is summed up in the dictum coined by Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That NDE's are real is a very extraordinary claim, and the extraordinary evidence for this has never been presented.

 

[jfish]

Regarding physical laws - the hypothesis is that there is more than just a physical matter reality. Because the vast majority of humanity can't experience non-physical matter reality directly, doesn't mean alternative realities don't exist. Ordinary physics principals don't apply in non-physical matter reality so there are limitations in using those principals when talking about non-physical matter reality. This next comment isn't a particularly good one but I'll use it to try to make a point - If one wanted to study US culture, one wouldn't go to the North Pole.

I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If we require extraordinary evidence before even acknowledging the possibility of an alternate reality puts us in a chicken or egg situation. Because it is so hard to prove using physical matter principals, should we abandon the effort? Some people (I am among them) believe the anecdotal evidence is sufficient to warrant further exploration and that the implications are enormous.

Some other thoughts on the notion that NDEs are simply dreams or lucid dreams. It might be interesting to gather a large group of lucid dreamers and a comparably large group of NDErs and ask them to answer a variety of questions about their experiences. Would we find there was a statistical difference in their responses to the following questions:
In your dream/NDE state did you experience an all encompassing love that our limited vocabulary can't begin to describe?
In your dream/NDE state did you experience a live review in minute detail with parallel displays (not serial) of events and emotions experienced?
In your dream/NDE state did you ever wish you could have left your physical life behind to permanently stay in the dream/NDE state? If so, were you ever told you had things to accomplish in your life before you could make the final transition?
In your dream/NDE state was communication with other people/beings of a telepathic nature not using words but something more akin to a massive data dump of thoughts that have no parallel in our physical matter reality?
After completing your dream/NDE, did you ever note the high freqency of failure of electro-mechanical objects (such as wrist watches, light bulbs, microwave ovens or radios) when those objects were in close proximity to you?
After completing your dream/NDE, did you ever experience hightened empathic abilities or abilities to see the future of individuals you came in random contact with? Were these abilities something you welcomed or did they cause problems for you?
Did your dream/NDE state initiate a significant change in your philosophy about life?

I suspect that there would be a statistical difference between the responses. That doesn't prove anything. It would likely imply that it isn't particularly useful to categorize NDEs as dreams. Of course we can always chose to completely discard the NDE claims as lies but that isn't a very scientific way to approach the issue. We could also say the NDE state was a hallucination but that doesn't very well explain the after effects from the NDE state.

One last post regarding the limitations of our physical matter principals. Repeatedly, people go to the Monroe Institute to attend the MC2 program. Some, not all, learn how to focus mental energy to bend spoons. I haven't attended the MC2 program but I know 2 people who have and they report seeing participants bending spoons and forks. I saw a display of bent spoons and forks when I went to the Gateway Voyage program. We can either dismiss this out of hand by saying they are lies or there is collusion to dupe society, or we can take this as another indicator that there is so much more to learn about our innate capabilities and that, perhaps, there are more hypotheses that need to be developed to explain this aspect of reality.

All that I've posted here isn't intended to convince anyone of anything. I'm just sharing the things I've been exposed to that prompt me to want to explore further rather than discard the notion that we are more than our physical bodies.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

 

[Resume]

One last post regarding the limitations of our physical matter principals. Repeatedly, people go to the Monroe Institute to attend the MC2 program. Some, not all, learn how to focus mental energy to bend spoons. I haven't attended the MC2 program but I know 2 people who have and they report seeing participants bending spoons and forks. I saw a display of bent spoons and forks when I went to the Gateway Voyage program. We can either dismiss this out of hand by saying they are lies or there is collusion to dupe society, or we can take this as another indicator that there is so much more to learn about our innate capabilities and that, perhaps, there are more hypotheses that need to be developed to explain this aspect of reality.

No one can use mental energy to bend spoons; this is a parlor trick from the back of a cereal box and to trot it out here on this forum exposes your credulity.

Either that or you're trolling and I grabbed the lure like a walleye.

 

[Pixel42]

We can either dismiss this out of hand by saying they are lies or there is collusion to dupe society, or we can take this as another indicator that there is so much more to learn about our innate capabilities and that, perhaps, there are more hypotheses that need to be developed to explain this aspect of reality.

Or we can conclude that when people are keen to believe something they don't need to be lied to, they are perfectly capable of fooling themselves into believing it, even when all the evidence they need to work out what's really going on is right in front of them.

As there are innumerable examples of that third possibility, it's the one I'm going for.

ETA:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

You do realise that the road to belief in woo is by far the one most travelled?

 

[ExMinister]

Some other thoughts on the notion that NDEs are simply dreams or lucid dreams. It might be interesting to gather a large group of lucid dreamers and a comparably large group of NDErs and ask them to answer a variety of questions about their experiences. Would we find there was a statistical difference in their responses to the following questions:
In your dream/NDE state did you experience an all encompassing love that our limited vocabulary can't begin to describe?
In your dream/NDE state did you experience a live review in minute detail with parallel displays (not serial) of events and emotions experienced?
In your dream/NDE state did you ever wish you could have left your physical life behind to permanently stay in the dream/NDE state? If so, were you ever told you had things to accomplish in your life before you could make the final transition?
In your dream/NDE state was communication with other people/beings of a telepathic nature not using words but something more akin to a massive data dump of thoughts that have no parallel in our physical matter reality?
After completing your dream/NDE, did you ever note the high freqency of failure of electro-mechanical objects (such as wrist watches, light bulbs, microwave ovens or radios) when those objects were in close proximity to you?
After completing your dream/NDE, did you ever experience hightened empathic abilities or abilities to see the future of individuals you came in random contact with? Were these abilities something you welcomed or did they cause problems for you?
Did your dream/NDE state initiate a significant change in your philosophy about life?

What you have described above applies mostly to Western NDEs.

To be fair, your questionnaire might also include elements of non-Western NDEs, such as:

-Did your dream/NDE include interaction with Yamatoots (specifically related to death in certain cultures)?

-Were you told your near-death was due to a clerical error in the heavenlies and sent back? (quite common in some cultures)

-Did your dream/NDE include being required to defend yourself karmically and be held accountable by a now-talking chicken or other animal that you mistreated?

It seems outside the Western world, the all-encompassing love, the life review, and being sent back because you are not finished, are less common.

I also wonder nowdays, if NDEs are real, why do they so often contradict each other?

Some people like to say that you will see whatever you expect to see, culturally speaking, when you die. Which is fine, and I used to think that made sense, though I assumed the differences would be in only the more superficial elements, like perhaps what you see immediately upon arrival into an afterlife realm. The idea is to make the person feel comfortable, it is said.

But beyond the superficial initial contact, shouldn't there be some over-arching truth, some commonalities that are universally shared?

Instead, the more you research, the more you find that so much of it is contradictory in what seem to me important ways.

Just as a few examples: Some NDErs return convinced there is reincarnation, some that there absolutely isn't. Some return convinced that the fundamentalist Christians had it right all along, some convinced of just the opposite.

Some people say the angels told them there would be another world war. Some say the angels told them specifically God would never allow such a thing to happen again.

Some NDErs say they were shown that there is no hell. Some are convinced that not only is there a hell, but they were in it. These people also return greatly changed.

Some return having been shown that being Baptist was what got them to heaven. Some return realizing that the Buddhists had it right, and give up their Hindu beliefs to join a Buddhist monastery. Why weren't they shown that the Baptists had it right, too?

Anyway, there are others, but that's just a sampling.

Doesn't it make you wonder how it is possible that all the angels don't agree on whether there will be another world war, though they state their opinion with such authority? Wouldn't everyone on the other side know whether or not reincarnation is real? Do some of the beings of light/angels/loved ones/deceased really not agree on whether or not hell exists? Think the Baptists had it right?

Can you imagine a Western person being told on the other side, "Oops, we got the wrong person!" What Western person wouldn't revive, completely alarmed that the other side could be so clueless? If they don't have it together when it comes to matters as important as life or death, what hope is there for the rest of us?

It makes no sense to me.

 

[steenkh]

Regarding physical laws - the hypothesis is that there is more than just a physical matter reality. Because the vast majority of humanity can't experience non-physical matter reality directly, doesn't mean alternative realities don't exist.

But in order for you to have NDE's, that is experiences that you are able to tell others about afterwards, the different physical realities need to interact with each other. Somehow information from the other will have to get into this one, and that is exactly what will falsify our entire understanding of physics. So either we have the straightforward "NDE's are ordinary physical events from the only reality that exists", or we have your "there are more physical realities, and our understanding of nuclear physics, quantum physics, relativity, the lot, is down the drains".

I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If we require extraordinary evidence before even acknowledging the possibility of an alternate reality puts us in a chicken or egg situation.

Why? All you need is good evidence that cannot be explained away with normal physics - there is no chicken/egg situation here.

Because it is so hard to prove using physical matter principals, should we abandon the effort? Some people (I am among them) believe the anecdotal evidence is sufficient to warrant further exploration and that the implications are enormous.

That is fine, just go ahead. Occam's Razor is not proving that the reality we know is the only one we have, it merely guides us to where we will get most out of our efforts. If you would like to explore the possibility of the existence of little green men on a far away planet, or the existence of alternative realities, it is your right, and if you get the required evidence, you will have improved human knowledge immensely.

However, toppling modern physics is not something you should expect will be easy, and you will have to be acutely aware that nothing you have presented so far cannot be explained by ordinary physics - as we have pointed out.

 

[jfish]

Pixel, everyone has their beliefs. There are many communities of belief where members share/adhere to a set of underpinings. I chose the Robert Frost quote because I feel the direction my beliefs are evolving are sufficiently different from the majority of belief communities. (For the record I include atheism as a belief system.)

 

[jfish]

ExMinister, I've read some commentary by NDE researchers who recognize the diversity of NDE experiences. Some NDE and OBE researchers express the opinion that our experiences in physical matter reality influence the nature of what each individual will experience after death. Someone who is brought up in the Muslim faith will not likely be exposed to a Jesus figure. A child NDEr who has had no religious background will have a different experience relative to a person heaviliy invested in a particular religious faith. The NDERF web site has perhaps the most NDE first person reports of any NDE collection. When asked if NDEs made the reporting individuals more religious or spiritual, there are a breadth of responses. Some become more religious and become active in a church while others become disenchanted with organized religion yet still characterize themselves as spiritual.

As you noted the diversity of messages/interpretations among NDErs is a documented fact. I've read a few (very few) NDEs that started off horribly with demons and horrible creatures. A friend of mine who had an NDE related to Legionnaires disease saw demons but was not frightened because she had already experienced the overwheling love and had been healed. She knew she was going to recover and be fine so she took the brief presence of demons in stride. I simply look at this as an indication that it isn't easy drawing definitive conclusions about what awaits us.

If our experiences during our lifetimes influence what awaits us after death, then it makes sense to live a life that will produce more positive results later. Whatever your thougths are regarding what happens after death, I don't see any downside to adopting this attitude. Selfishness, self centeredness, pride and a lack of caring about our fellow man has the potential to negatively affect what awaits us. Why take a chance?

 

[marplots]

If our experiences during our lifetimes influence what awaits us after death, then it makes sense to live a life that will produce more positive results later. Whatever your thougths are regarding what happens after death, I don't see any downside to adopting this attitude. Selfishness, self centeredness, pride and a lack of caring about our fellow man has the potential to negatively affect what awaits us. Why take a chance?

I think this is a poor basis for acting honorably. If you ever determine that there is no life after death, you will lose your incentive to act positively. I do not think ideas of the afterlife add any justification for living the best life possible just because part of living the best possible life is worth doing all by itself.

Doesn't it strike you as a poor motivation as well? Are our lives so devoid of a willingness to act from our better natures that we need some kind of promissory note on a maybe/maybe not spiritual bank account? How is that not self-centeredness in a larger context?

If a man says, "I do not do what I think I should do because it is best, but because I am worried that my deeds may follow me after death." I read that as a kind of sad commentary on humans that, childlike, need an outside authority to keep them in line lest they steal too many cookies from the jar.

 

[steenkh]

If a man says, "I do not do what I think I should do because it is best, but because I am worried that my deeds may follow me after death." I read that as a kind of sad commentary on humans that, childlike, need an outside authority to keep them in line lest they steal too many cookies from the jar.

I agree. I have often encountered this thinking with Christians who think that only the fear of hellfire is preventing them from going on a spree of rape and murder.

In any case, jfish's argument is also wrong, because even if our present behaviour might influence a possible life after death, we cannot know what our behaviour should be. Perhaps we should strive to die in battle in order to get a seat in Valhalla?

 

[Resume]

(For the record I include atheism as a belief system.)

And you'd be incorrect.