Monopoly Men

[Cl1mh4224rd]

• Store coupons
• Admission tickets
• Deeds & titles
• ...

There are loads of pseudo-currencies that have no intrinsic value. The value is in what the one can expect to receive in the market in exchange for the piece of paper.

• Beer...

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

CT money

There are many people (individuals; I can't state the same for businesses) who'll accept this CT money to settle debts.

My sister works at Canadian Tire.

They treat their CT money for security purposes exactly the same as real money. A guy who steals 100 dollars in CT money is essentially stealing 100$ of regular merchandise.

I used to be involved with The Alberta Social Credit Party and ran for Member of Legislative Assembly as a socred in the 1997 Alberta election. The "Social Credit" movement from wich the party derives it's name is similar to the Austrian School that T$1.98 adheres to.

During my time among the socreds, I heard claims similar to his about Canadian law, that people who deal in anything other than the official "coin of the realm" are subject to severe legal penalties.

To my knowledge; no executive, store owner, employee or customer of Canadian Tire has ever been nailed by the RCMP or CSIS for attempting to undermine the Canadian Dollar.

So Ace... if you do know of anyone who has been prosecuted for not taking US dollars, I would really like to hear about it. I know some people who would love to make martyrs out of them. And perhaps even donate to thier defense funds (as long as thier lawyers are willing to take payment in "Alberta Funny Money").

 

[HeyLeroy]

Well, years ago I worked at a video store and I refused to take US currency on a purchase because the guy was being a prick.

But then again I live in Canada.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

There were indeed people prosecuted for refusing to accept dollars, people whose contracts in gold were effectively ripped up by the Fed Act in 1913. People were imprisoned in the US for simply trying to hold on to their own gold in 1933.

People are correct to fear hyperinflation, as occurred in post WWI Germany. This is a perfect example of what can happen with unbacked fiat money. The Germans were printing fiat money as fast as they could trying to pay off their war debts.

A gold standard is the best protection against both inflation and deflation.

I have given a very succinct theoretical reconstruction of the history of money, earlier in this thread. My views on economics are entirely consistent with those of Murray Rothbard and Hans Hoppe. If any of you are aware of scholarly criticism of their work, I'd be glad to look at it. Until then, this is the final word on the subject of money:

http://www.mises.org/money.asp


Why don't you guys have a go at debunking it?

 

[332nd]

There were indeed people prosecuted for refusing to accept dollars, people whose contracts in gold were effectively ripped up by the Fed Act in 1913. People were imprisoned in the US for simply trying to hold on to their own gold in 1933.

People are correct to fear hyperinflation, as occurred in post WWI Germany. This is a perfect example of what can happen with unbacked fiat money. The Germans were printing fiat money as fast as they could trying to pay off their war debts.

A gold standard is the best protection against both inflation and deflation.

I have given a very succinct theoretical reconstruction of the history of money, earlier in this thread. My views on economics are entirely consistent with those of Murray Rothbard and Hans Hoppe. If any of you are aware of scholarly criticism of their work, I'd be glad to look at it. Until then, this is the final word on the subject of money:

http://www.mises.org/money.asp


Why don't you guys have a go at debunking it?

No, no, no, post a direct link to those who were prosecuted for refusing to accept dollars. Not an entire site that we'll have to wade through to find your evidence.

 

[Blue Monk]

Governments, in partnership with the large commercial banks, forcibly took over and monopolized the production of money.

Governments? Perhaps I've misunderstood you but from whom did the government take the production of money from?

 

[uk_dave]

This is so American.
Where else in the world would an obsession with money lead to a conspiracy theory?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is so American.
Where else in the world would an obsession with money lead to a conspiracy theory?

If you would have clicked the links in my last post, you would have learned that the only place in the world where a government was formed based on these ideas was a province in the British Commonwealth.

The originator of the social credit theory of economics (while not a "conspiracy" theory per se, it's promoted today almost exclusively by banking/NWO conspiracy theorists) itself was concieved by Clifford Hugh Douglas, an englishman.

 

[Mobyseven]

I love it when people say things like "You don't have to pay tax, here's why!"

I have worked for a tax office (not income tax, mind you) and I guarantee you - we don't miss a beat when someone owes money. And you'll get your arse royally kicked if you try to avoid paying.

A bit of an anecdote - I once received something in my worktray simply marked 'incoming correspondence'. Now, where I worked, everything had a label of some kind, and 'incoming correspondence' was basically the label for 'this doesn't really fit in anywhere - pass it on down the line'.

I took a look at the work item and cracked up laughing - it was a bill that we had sent someone, that had been sent directly back to us with the note, "This tax is fraud and robbery. Don't want to shoot the messanger, but you cannot make me pay this, this is piracy! Sincerely, [name withheld]"

We sent a new bill to him, with an extra charge for postage.

 

[uk_dave]

It is interesting that 911 appears to be just an excuse for some people to rant about 'the man', mostly in order to express their thinly veiled racism or greed.

Anti-semites and racists in general use it as a tool to beat on Jews or Arabs (they all live in caves, you know?)

The greedy use it to beat on the government for taking a chunk of their earnings.

The really sad ones just want to believe that someone other than themselves is responsible for their sad little lives ("The NWO made me watch porn!")

The 911 ct will fade away after 2008, with just the remnants of it bound up with the pet peeves of greedy/racist/sad people.

 

[JonnyFive]

People are correct to fear hyperinflation, as occurred in post WWI Germany. This is a perfect example of what can happen with unbacked fiat money. The Germans were printing fiat money as fast as they could trying to pay off their war debts.

Yes, and if people hoarde gold, it deflates the economy and causes a crash. What of it?

ETA: It's not just hoarding, I know. But I needed a simplistic one-liner to respond with.

A gold standard is the best protection against both inflation and deflation.

I know you probably won't listen to me, because you ignored everything I typed above, but you are 100% wrong about this. To say this implies that you are unaware of the causes of deflation, if nothing else.

Monetary deflation is caused by the rising value of currency and lack of currency in circulation. While those that do have money have increased purchasing power, there is a huge ripple effect on employment and the market. Unemployment increases or wages sharply drop because companies cannot afford to pay the same salaries to their employees while maintaining their operations. The rising unemployment means fewer people have the ability to purchase goods, which then decreases income to businesses, which enhances this cycle.

With a backed currency, the government does not have the power, or the same power, to inflate the economy in a severe deflationary cycle. This is especially true if people begin to hoarde their money, as they are wont to do if the economy is crashing.

The main problem with backed currency is, ironically, that there is a finite supply of it. Their is not ability to correct for those kind of economic problems.

The only way to inflate a backed currency is for the government to release more if it into the market from, say, government reserves. Gold doesn't, as you seem to think, inherently make a currency worth a certain amount, it just inherently limits the supply of it. True, this tends to limit inflation, but it does nothing for deflation.

TS, these are fairly simple economics topics, and you have apparently not studied them in any kind of rigorous fashion. I would strongly suggest that you take some university-level economics courses. Everything you've mentioned here would be covered in a comprehensive macro ecnomics or introductory economics course, and you have several misconceptions about money and banking.

To sum up: Gold backing does not protect against deflation. It, by its very design, cannot effectively protect against deflation because deflation is caused by a shrinking money supply, and backed currency offers no means to easily increase the money supply.

Of course, the government can simply declare that $1, which was worth x amount of gold in your economy is not worth x - y gold. Sure, it's still "gold backed," just backed with a bit less.

But that's trivia. In a backed system that enforces a strict ratio of dollars to gold, deflation will always be a concern.

Now, another matter: What do you think fractional reserve banking refers to? Why do you believe it is bad?

 

[JonnyFive]

I looked over that web site TS linked to a bit.

I reviewed their article on the problem of "hoarding." They attempt to dispel this "myth" by talking about the price level falling and the purchasing power of the gold ounce rising.

Suuure, in a magical fantasy world, this would work. But I have a couple main problems with their arguments:

1) Prices and wages are "sticky" - they do not respond instantly to changes in price level. This is what creates recessionary spirals; if money supply shrinks, prices and wages will tend to remain higher than the market can bear. This results in collapsing businesses and unemployment. Ideally, everything would adjust, but if the supply shrinks too fast for that to happen, the labor and goods prices can't keep pace with the growing purchasing power of the currency. Remember that there are real businesses and people underneath the statistics - prices and wages don't just magically snap to the ideal level.

2) Their defense doesn't address what to do in the event of a collapse scenario. Once you've started closing businesses and firing people due to a recession, how do you stop it with a backed currency? There are ways to curb the problem (releasing government reserves of uncirculated backed currency is one, changing reserve requirements for banks would be another - and one we can use with our current monetary system in the US), but the authors don't seem to bother with that.

Now, I'm not saying backed currency is evil, or doesn't work well, but it is pure fallacy to argue that a backed currency is a wondiferous cure-all to economic problems. It has just as many problems as non-backed currency, they just show up in different ways.

 

[jsiv]

A gold standard is the best protection against both inflation and deflation.

Until I complete my machine that synthesizes gold.

Then you'll be grateful that you live in one of the many countries that do not use gold.

 

[CurtC]

Governments? Perhaps I've misunderstood you but from whom did the government take the production of money from?

From the banks.

Actually, it should say "production of currency" instead of money - we've already discussed how the money supply is increased anytime a person takes out a loan.

Before the Civil War, paper currency was issued only by private banks. During the Civil War, the financial emergencies associated with it prompted Treasury Secretary Salmon Chase (the Chase Bank named after him) to persuade Lincoln to issue paper currency from the government.

People here shouldn't downplay the dictatorial things done by FDR in the name of a national emergency. He single-handedly forced private people to surrender their gold, in exchange for paper currency that they didn't want. I'm not sure if anyone went to jail, but people were forced to surrender their gold or face criminal charges.

 

[Cuddles]

From the banks.

Actually, it should say "production of currency" instead of money - we've already discussed how the money supply is increased anytime a person takes out a loan.

I don't know about the US, but in the UK the banks still produce money. There are at least four banks that produce their own money, the Bank of England, Bank of Scotland, The Royal Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale Bank. Northern Ireland has it's own notes so I assume there are actually more than four. It's probably not true to say it is completely seperate from the government since there are regulations and laws involved, but it is certainly not true that the govenment has taken anything away from anyone.

 

[JonnyFive]

Why will TruthSeeker not tell me what he thinks fractional reserve banking is and how it works? Doesn't he love me anymore?

 

[Mashuna]

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that living standards would be twice as high today, but for government intervention into the market. Could be much more than that even.

Debunk that, foolish debunkers! Ace has shown us that livings standards would be at least twice as high! When the gold standard was in place, we all worked half the hours for twice the money. And had flying carpets.

Or something.

 

[JonnyFive]

Debunk that, foolish debunkers! Ace has shown us that livings standards would be at least twice as high! When the gold standard was in place, we all worked half the hours for twice the money. And had flying carpets.

Or something.

What is that? Argumentum ad wishful thinkingum?

Actually, if it weren't for the government intervention into our markets, the crash in the late 80's (what was it, '87?) probably would've been much worse than it was, with the discount loans from the Fed and all. Oh wait a minute, there I go using actualy examples and stuff.

 

[CurtC]

You can't say what would have happened in the 80s, because the events we'r talking about so drastically changed everything. But the history of bank runs and market crashes in all likelihood would have continued without the creation of the Fed. And that makes people poorer overall.

 

[DavidS]

Again, everything is worth only what others will pay for it.

This made me recall PJ O'Rourke's book Eat the Rich, which I found to be an entertaining and amusing book about economics for non-economists. The central chapter, in particular, lists ten (IIRC) fundamental economic truths, of which the first is "A thing is worth what somebody will pay for it, and it isn't worth anything else." Other gems off the top of my memory are "Things cost what they cost", and "Everybody gets paid".

Besides, I like PJ's humor. If you're a real left-winger you might not like his views, but so what? That doesn't mean you it can't give you a chuckle or two.

See also Give War a Chance.