Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million.

[theprestige]

Not just a PowerPoint. The complaint claims that two teachers put substantial effort into cajoling and tricking the students into the photo op.

There's like a week's worth of too much "this will be funny, let's try really hard to make it happen," and not enough "maybe comparing our students to monkeys is a bad idea."

I feel like the money isn't about this specific incident, but about the school having its collective head so far up its collective ass that incidents like this can even happen.

I bet there's a pervasive culture at the school where crap like this happens a lot, but mostly below the threshold of actually being able to build a case on.

I bet that it's exactly the school's tolerance of "harmless" racism that gave these teachers the mistaken idea that this would fly.

 

[William Parcher]

...The district said that since returning from winter break, the Superintendent and the High School Administration has met with the teacher, community members and the families involved.

“We are proud of the diversity at Longwood Schools, and we will continue to provide sensitivity training to our students and staff to raise awareness of our cultural differences,” the district said. “Longwood is committed to providing an educational environment that is nurturing, supportive, safe, and conducive to learning.”

The school district would not say what, if any, disciplinary measures were taken against the teachers involved, and said that “due to pending litigation” it has no further comment on the matter.

But the students’ attorney claimed that the teachers involved are still teaching.

https://nypost.com/2020/01/08/long-...black-students-to-monkeys-in-field-trip-photo

That article is two days old. Not sure if the teacher is still teaching, or what.

 

[Planigale]

I know a children's hospital that pulls the same guilt trip. Every time someone threatens to sue after their kid dies from negligence the hospital bats its eyelashes, summons tears, and says in a quivering voice "but but but we need that money to save the other children!"

There are compensatory damages, and obviously people are entitled to those.

Punitive damages are a particularly US phenomenon. Punishment is really a matter for a criminal court not a civil court. By definition punitive damages are meant to punish the transgressor not award the claimant. The reason why rewards are so high in many US civil cases are punitive damages that are often out of proportion to the actual damage done. Arguably the benefit of punitive damages would be as great if the money was used to some social benefit, e.g. damages in this case given to a charity that promotes / subsidises anti-racist educational materials. That at least would mean that money people had paid and voted to be spent on children's education was at least being used to some educational benefit.

ETA
The school board budget is about $250,000,000, so the costs if awarded in full is about 5% of the total budget, not an unsubstantial amount when we hear schools and teachers in the public sector are struggling. The children most likely to be affected are the poorest and most deprived by any cuts. Roughly $4 million will go to lawyers, that leaves $2 million per child . More than the US pays out for wrongful killing. I do not believe that however hurtful this was it will have done $millions in harm. Also I am not sure that having a prolonged court case won't actually increase any harm, it does not seem likely to be a healing process.

I accept that this is a negotiating position and the likely outcome will be an out of court settlement for considerably less.

 

[William Parcher]

“It scars them forever,” said Beverly Dean, one of dozens of speakers who addressed the school board before a crowd of about 300 people at Longwood High School’s auditorium. “What are we going to do for that student when they are 30 years old and have a flashback?”

If it is money that makes people whole again, then just give these guys a million dollars every time they have a flashback. If that is not a good idea then make the lawsuit much bigger... say, in the hundreds of millions.

 

[ArchSas]

That's the other thing. This wasn't a verbal slip up that, mountains of context aside, might, might have been a nothingburger in some cases, again mountain of context not withstanding.

It was a goddamn Powerpoint Presentation. You can't just Freudian slip in desktop publishing.

To further that, I don't even see why those slides could have reasonably been used in the first place. It looks like it was supposed to be a lecture about zoology, so why include posed pictures of students with a caption that could easily be seen as offensive? I've seen plenty of jokes in presentations, that's one thing - hell, I've even been in multiple primatology lectures that have included joke slides featuring humans and apes showing the same behavior saying things like "monkey see, monkey do" and "not so different." That would have been fine, and there's clearly a point to that. That caption over a slide showing students interacting with the gorillas in some way might even have been understandable (in the Fruedian slip way you're talking about). This doesn't appear to be anything like that, it's just black students thrown in with slides about primates, and with a caption indicating some relation. I have no idea why the teacher thought going through the effort of having the kids pose, making the slide, and including it in a lecture was a good idea.

At best, those teachers were just so stupid and unaware it's kind of baffling. I have no idea if they're racists or not, and it doesn't really matter. They did a dumb, unnecessary thing that played directly into well-known racist tropes and caused offense as a result. Calling that out is fully warranted, and I don't see why a teacher who cares about his students wouldn't realize he made a mistake, acknowledge that, and try to do better at the very least.

 

[William Parcher]

To further that, I don't even see why those slides could have reasonably been used in the first place. It looks like it was supposed to be a lecture about zoology, so why include posed pictures of students with a caption that could easily be seen as offensive? I've seen plenty of jokes in presentations, that's one thing - hell, I've even been in multiple primatology lectures that have included joke slides featuring humans and apes showing the same behavior saying things like "monkey see, monkey do" and "not so different." That would have been fine, and there's clearly a point to that. That caption over a slide showing students interacting with the gorillas in some way might even have been understandable (in the Fruedian slip way you're talking about). This doesn't appear to be anything like that, it's just black students thrown in with slides about primates, and with a caption indicating some relation. I have no idea why the teacher thought going through the effort of having the kids pose, making the slide, and including it in a lecture was a good idea.

At best, those teachers were just so stupid and unaware it's kind of baffling.

It looks like the pre-Christmas slideshow is a tradition at this school and poking fun at students is part of that slideshow tradition...

But Scott Twining, who said his five children were taught by the teacher under fire, said the slideshow had been a feature of the class for many years and students of all colors were included as a joke, not as a slur meant to harm. “They’re not racist,” he said of the slideshows, adding that he has black relatives and would not hesitate to allow them to be taught by Heinrichs. “They’re meant for fun.”

They poke fun at students of all races. They don't care about race. So they were doing the same thing they always do but this time they made a big error without realizing it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"It's not racist because we're making fun of everyone" isn't a thing.

Neither is "I can't be racist because 'I don't see race.'"

 

[ArchSas]

"It's not racist because we're making fun of everyone" isn't a thing.

Neither is "I can't be racist because 'I don't see race.'"

Nor are "it's not racism because it's a joke," or "I know black people and I'm not offended, so it's not racist."

 

[Belz...]

Nor are "it's not racism because it's a joke," or "I know black people and I'm not offended, so it's not racist."

I think you mean "I know black people and they're not offended, so it's not racist."

However, I do think it requires an element of intent to be racist, and this case qualifies imo.

 

[ArchSas]

I think you mean "I know black people and they're not offended, so it's not racist."

No, I meant what I wrote, because that's exactly the defense used in that quote in post 46. That guy didn't say anything about knowing black people that weren't offended, just that he has black relatives (as kind of a weird non sequitur that reminds me a lot of "I can't be racist because I have a black friend") and doesn't think the captions were racist. Your version is more common, and equally invalid as a defense, but I didn't want to put words in that guy's mouth.

But yeah, I think the main point here is the effort and intent, which is pretty damning.

 

[Planigale]

It looks like the pre-Christmas slideshow is a tradition at this school and poking fun at students is part of that slideshow tradition...



They poke fun at students of all races. They don't care about race. So they were doing the same thing they always do but this time they made a big error without realizing it.

I can actually believe this. They may have done a similar pose and caption with many students over the years of varying race, gender and sexuality. It just happened that they did it this year with four black males. Teachers should be more sensitive to these issues and this should not have happened but I can see if they have done something similar in previous years with no complaint how they ended up doing something stupid.

 

[Belz...]

No, I meant what I wrote, because that's exactly the defense used in that quote in post 46.

Well alright, but my version is something I actually hear.

 

[smartcooky]

Nonsense about the highlighted. The students didn't suffer $12M worth of harm.

The teacher should be sacked and the school offer an apology.

You see, your attitude, well meaning as it might be, is the type that allows this kind of crap to continue to happen. What you are suggesting here is targeting of the person who actually did this, and giving the school district a slap on the hand with a wet tram ticket, and on so doing, failing to address culture in the school district that allowed this to happen. People don't usually commit this kind of racist action out of the blue or in a vacuum. There are certain to have been earlier indications that this teacher was a racist, and they should have been weeded beforehand.

As judge, and assuming that what has been alleged here is the truth, my judgement would be for the whole $12m as asked, awarding the four students $20K each, and the balance of the judgement to go to a charity involved in education against racism such as the Southern Poverty Law Centre. Hit racist organisations where it hurts the most, the bottom line, and send out a warning to other such organisations that this kind of thing will not be tolerated.

 

[lionking]

Two teachers.

The school and the district do the hiring, training, and supervision of teachers. They set the norms and expectations for their staff.

The taxpayers, of course, have a vested interest in how their money is being spent. They have the standing to oversee the schools they're paying for, and the responsibility to do so.

These kinds of things don't happen in a vacuum. These teachers were somehow under the impression that comparing their black students to monkeys was okay. I think the entire "chain of command" is implicated in the evolution of these norms. Everyone - teachers, administrators, taxpayers - need to feel the bite of that responsibility. And the shame and chagrin of allowing these norms to blossom in their schools.

Agreed.

 

[lionking]

It looks like the pre-Christmas slideshow is a tradition at this school and poking fun at students is part of that slideshow tradition...



They poke fun at students of all races. They don't care about race. So they were doing the same thing they always do but this time they made a big error without realizing it.

Utter nonsense. The teachers have (presumably) been educated and don’t live in caves. They must have realised the offensive nature of the slides, but went ahead anyway. So they were stupid secondly, and racist firstly.

 

[William Parcher]

As judge, and assuming that what has been alleged here is the truth, my judgement would be for the whole $12m as asked, awarding the four students $20K each, and the balance of the judgement to go to a charity involved in education against racism such as the Southern Poverty Law Centre. Hit racist organisations where it hurts the most, the bottom line, and send out a warning to other such organisations that this kind of thing will not be tolerated.

Those boys and their parents might strongly disagree with your distribution of payout. They may feel that they need to become sudden millionaires in order to repair their personal harm.

$20K to the charity and the rest to the boys. Otherwise, your suggestion could look like someone snatching away a winning lottery ticket.

 

[Planigale]

You see, your attitude, well meaning as it might be, is the type that allows this kind of crap to continue to happen. What you are suggesting here is targeting of the person who actually did this, and giving the school district a slap on the hand with a wet tram ticket, and on so doing, failing to address culture in the school district that allowed this to happen. People don't usually commit this kind of racist action out of the blue or in a vacuum. There are certain to have been earlier indications that this teacher was a racist, and they should have been weeded beforehand.

As judge, and assuming that what has been alleged here is the truth, my judgement would be for the whole $12m as asked, awarding the four students $20K each, and the balance of the judgement to go to a charity involved in education against racism such as the Southern Poverty Law Centre. Hit racist organisations where it hurts the most, the bottom line, and send out a warning to other such organisations that this kind of thing will not be tolerated.

Seconded!

 

[smartcooky]

Those boys and their parents might strongly disagree with your distribution of payout. They may feel that they need to become sudden millionaires in order to repair their personal harm.

$20K to the charity and the rest to the boys. Otherwise, your suggestion could look like someone snatching away a winning lottery ticket.

I'm going to be generous here and assume that you forgot to include the "sarcasm" smiley!

 

[William Parcher]

I'm going to be generous here and assume that you forgot to include the "sarcasm" smiley!

There is no sarcasm.

I imagine these boys laying in bed each night waiting to fall asleep. I imagine them thinking about becoming sudden millionaires and what they will spend it on. But then I think maybe they don't think about that at all and instead all they can think of is the horror of Monkey Do. Even a brand new Lamborghini cannot erase the horror of Monkey Do.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"Black people should be happy people are racist to them because they can make big money off of race based lawsuits."

That's a new one.