Modern-day conservative rhetoric 101

[Neally]

Sorry, you have implied that her statements could not possibly have had any effect on anyone. So prove it or drop it.

She plainly stated her position. Again, I have no idea if anyone other that some on the left misinterpreted her comments as a call to arms. The burden is on you to prove she meant something other than what she said or that others misinterpreted it.

 

[Chaos]

She plainly stated her position. Again, I have no idea if anyone other that some on the left misinterpreted her comments as a call to arms. The burden is on you to prove she meant something other than what she said or that others misinterpreted it.

"Nice president you have there. Would be a shame if something... happened to him."

No threat involved, eh?

 

[Halfcentaur]

I don't think he intended this literally as a prayer for Obama to die, but I do think the original context of the bible verse which is however calling for someone's death is a tongue in cheek wink wink sort of thing that is to be viewed as if it wouldn't be so bad if if Obama did die,... as in a joke in bad taste.

 

[Neally]

"Nice president you have there. Would be a shame if something... happened to him."

I guess since what she plainly said doesn't work to support your case, you have to create a quote.

No threat involved, eh?

Unfortunately for your case, nope.

 

[leftysergeant]

She plainly stated her position. Again, I have no idea if anyone other that some on the left misinterpreted her comments as a call to arms. The burden is on you to prove she meant something other than what she said or that others misinterpreted it.

That the hateful little harpy even considers the 2nd Amendment a "remedy" shows a mental defect on her part.

 

[Tricky]

I don't think he intended this literally as a prayer for Obama to die, but I do think the original context of the bible verse which is however calling for someone's death is a tongue in cheek wink wink sort of thing that is to be viewed as if it wouldn't be so bad if if Obama did die,... as in a joke in bad taste.

I would guess you're right. The man has probably never opened a bible in his life, and he only quotes bible verses he sees on bumper stickers. Stupid and ignorant, yes, but a real prayer for Obama's death? No.

 

[Nova Land]

Oh cmon, do you think he was clamoring for his death or taking Psalm 109:8 at purely the value of the sentence alone (cherry picked with no thought to context...

I don't think he intended this literally as a prayer for Obama to die, but I do think the original context of the bible verse which is however calling for someone's death is a tongue in cheek wink wink sort of thing that is to be viewed as if it wouldn't be so bad if if Obama did die,... as in a joke in bad taste.

I would guess you're right. The man has probably never opened a bible in his life, and he only quotes bible verses he sees on bumper stickers. Stupid and ignorant, yes, but a real prayer for Obama's death? No.

Two years ago that excuse was reasonable. That was when people began citing that bible verse in bumper stickers, t-shirts, e-mails and tweets. But the use of that verse created a considerable uproar and quite a bit of coverage, including this 2009 Christian Science Monitor story:

Biblical anti-Obama slogan: Use of Psalm 109:8 funny or sinister?​

There’s a new slogan making its way onto car bumpers and across the Internet. It reads simply: “Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8”...

The psalm reads, “Let his days be few; and let another take his office”... But the verse immediately following the psalm referenced is a bit more ominous: “Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.”

The slogan comes at a time of heightened concern about antigovernment anger. Earlier this year, the president's senior adviser, David Axelrod, said that Tea Parties could lead to something unhealthy. In September, authorities shut down a poll on Facebook asking if President Obama should be killed...

The article notes that both the ACLU and the Anti-Defamation League defended the bumper stickers because of the ambiguity:

“The problem is you don’t know if people who are donning that message in a shirt or on a bumper sticker are fully aware of the quote or what follows. Obviously that message makes the ambiguity disappear. If they’re just referring to him being out of office, that’s one thing. If they’re referring to him being dead, that’s so offensive. It’s protected speech, but it’s clearly offensive.”

And at least one of the people re-tweeting that message in 2009 whom the CSM contacted said she was unaware of the full bible verse and was simply trying to say she wished Obama would serve only one term. So it's reasonable to accept the excuse that people using Psalm 109:8 in 2009 were unaware of the next line (and the full meaning) of the verse they were citing.

But anyone who continued to use that verse after the 2009 to-do about it, whether on shirts and bumper-stickers or in tweets and e-mails, has much less excuse for not knowing what they are saying.

It's certainly possible that Mike O'Neal (the Kansas Republican referred to in the OP) pays so little attention to politics and current events that he completely missed the 2009 fuss over this. But if so, that does not speak well for him -- nor for the Kansas Republicans who selected him to be speaker of the Kansas House of Representatives.

 

[Lowpro]

But anyone who continued to use that verse after the 2009 to-do about it, whether on shirts and bumper-stickers or in tweets and e-mails, has much less excuse for not knowing what they are saying.

can't agree to that myself, because there are people who aren't all aboard the same information train so to speak. If someone were to say "Pray for Obama, Psalm 109:8-9" then I could agree that there's a (malevolent) pernicious attitude, but I really really really think that this is just a cherry picked statement from the Bible meant to be taken at face value.

I don't fully anticipate O'Neal to be keeping up with these things. If this were truly a calling for Obama's death they would have been wise to include 108:9, it is the Bible after all, who are they to be coy with it.

 

[elbe]

I think it's entirely likely that someone started using it, knowing the full verse, but less knowledgable people picked it up from their and it spread. My understanding is that christians can be very insular sometimes so it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't aware of news from a couple years ago or the full context (being that it's not a "go to" verse they probably never bothered to actually read it).

 

[Nova Land]

If this were truly a calling for Obama's death they would have been wise to include 108:9 ...

Well, no, because including 108:9 would make the intent clear; they wouldn't have plausible deniability.

By making an oblique reference (simply mentioning 108:8 without quoting it -- and especially without quoting 108:9) people can then put on an innocent expression, express ignorance of the actual words of the verse, and claim they had no intention of urging people to pray for Obama's death. It's what weasels do.

If this were 2009, when the controversy over this slogan first erupted, I'd be inclined to assume ignorance unless evidence of weaselry were produced. Many people passing on the slogan then clearly were ignorant of the hidden meaning.

In 2011, though, that excuse is much less plausible -- at least for anyone who follows politics reasonably closely.

I don't know Mike O'Neal personally, so I don't know if he falls into the weasel category or the ignorant category. But if he's speaker of the Kansas House of Representatives he's unlikely to be a political newcomer. His career depends on being reasonably aware of political controversies. He's a reasonably prominent public figure -- and for any reasonably prominent public figure who uses this slogan, I'm inclined to assume weaselry until evidence of ignorance is produced.

 

[Lowpro]

Well, no, because including 108:9 would make the intent clear; they wouldn't have plausible deniability.

By making an oblique reference (simply mentioning 108:8 without quoting it -- and especially without quoting 108:9) people can then put on an innocent expression, express ignorance of the actual words of the verse, and claim they had no intention of urging people to pray for Obama's death. It's what weasels do.

If this were 2009, when the controversy over this slogan first erupted, I'd be inclined to assume ignorance unless evidence of weaselry were produced. Many people passing on the slogan then clearly were ignorant of the hidden meaning.

In 2011, though, that excuse is much less plausible -- at least for anyone who follows politics reasonably closely.

I don't know Mike O'Neal personally, so I don't know if he falls into the weasel category or the ignorant category. But if he's speaker of the Kansas House of Representatives he's unlikely to be a political newcomer. His career depends on being reasonably aware of political controversies. He's a reasonably prominent public figure -- and for any reasonably prominent public figure who uses this slogan, I'm inclined to assume weaselry until evidence of ignorance is produced.

Well if we can only assume they're being sly, then we can go extreme and accuse them of demanding genocide, infanticide*, etc etc which you can find all over in the book, I mean if we accuse them of being weasels who's to say how far they meant it -.- it might as well be a meme from where no one knows why it's used other than that, at face value, it fits the bill of every republican's lament that they really really really want Obama out, and someone else in. The fact that it's from the Bible is just the icing on their spurned cake.

Look I understand that 2009 came and this controversy occurred. But I didn't know about that controversy then; this is the first time I've ever heard this passage being used in reference to Obama (though it can't be the first time it's been used I'd imagine.) Now, if I've not heard anything of it what makes you think O'Neal must at least have and is aware of the controversy. We aren't given the slightest hint at all that this passage is also meant to include 109:9 and only speculate as much. To me, it's unfounded, and the ACLU and the Anti Defamation League agree.

I find it MUCH more likely that O'Neal is just another Kansas Republican (read: moron) who isn't savvy to this controversy. He gets my benefit of the doubt. It would be to my error to ever give any American Christian politician the confidence that they know their holy book.

*Or we can accuse them of also demanding that his kids grow in poverty for the sins of their father, of which Obama has committed no sin as described in Psalm 109. Really man, I'm telling you that just because they cherry picked one line (109:8) doesn't give the rest of us license to cherry pick the next line (109:9) after all ALL of Psalm 109 is a prayer to God to scourge a man who cursed/spurned the guy writing the prayer. In THAT context there is no relation of O'Neal towards Obama, unless Obama personally cursed and scourged O'Neal (after O'Neal had given Obama his friendship of course)and O'Neal then sought a higher power for vengeance.

 

[Nova Land]

I find it MUCH more likely that O'Neal is just another Kansas Republican (read: moron) who isn't savvy to this controversy....

And here we have the crux of the matter. Neither of us knows O'Neal personally. Both of us are in the position of guessing which is more likely: that O'Neal is genuinely acting out of ignorance (of what the verse actually says, and of the previous controversy which erupted over its use), or that O'Neal is feigning ignorance in order to be able to pander to the worst instincts of his followers without being able to be held to account for it.

You think it's more likely O'Neal is genuinely ignorant. Fair enough. On a different day of the week I might lean the same way.

It's quite possible O'Neal truly is not aware of the 2009 fuss over this. I think he's less likely to be ignorant of it than the average citizen, but it's still quite a reasonable possibility that he never heard of it. But I think it's also a reasonable possibility that he or someone around him was aware of it and he went ahead anyway, in the belief he wouldn't be caught and that if he were he'd have plausible deniability.

If he were truly ignorant that this could be taken as a prayer for Obama's death, and if he truly never intended any such meaning, than a quick and sincere apology once that meaning was pointed out to him would have been an appropriate thing to do. For instance: I'm sorry; it never occurred to me that this could be taken as a prayer for someone's death. That is not what I meant. If I had realized my words could be taken that way, I would never have included that in my e-mail.

According to news accounts, O'Neal did apologize, sort of, for a slur against Michelle Obama he made once that was exposed. And reading the account of that is one of the things which indicates to me that weaseltry is familiar territory for O'Neal. First he and his staff tried to brush the matter aside:

Initially, O’Neal’s office sent out a statement defending the e-mail.

“Political cartoons are a part of American culture,” the statement said.

“It’s hard to see how Mike O’Neal poking fun at himself and forwarding a lighthearted political cartoon about the first lady’s extravagant spending of taxpayer funds during a time when many Americans are financially struggling is newsworthy.”

It was only after that didn't wash that O'Neal issued his apology:

“Cartoons are intended to be humorous,” O’Neal said in a statement.

“This one made me laugh- I’ve had bad hair days too. I forwarded it too quickly missing the text included in the body of the email. To those I have offended, I am sorry. That was not at all my intent.”