[Moderated Thread] CFLarsen's and SteveGrenard's Pedophilia Thread

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Paidika articles:

On Seeing a Beautiful Boy at Play by Nathaniel Parker Willis

The Life of a Christian Boy-Lover: The Poet Willem De Merode (1887-1939)
by Hans Hafkamp

Thc Hysteria Over Child Pornography and Paedophilia
by Laurence A. Stanley, Esq.

The Irresistible Beauty of Boys: Middle Eastern Attitudes About Boy-Love
by Maarten Schild

The Boy-Lover by Edward Perry Warren

"The World is Bursting with Adults, so I'm always Glad to See a
Little Girl" by Theo Sandfort

Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children. Interiew: Kate Millett
by Mark Blasius

Karol Szymanowski, His Boy-Love Novel, and the Boy He Loved
by Hubert Kennedy

Time of Youth, Time of Beauty; The Poet Jan Hanlo (1912-1969)
by Hans Hafkamp

The entire text of Edward Brongersma's early book 'In Defence of Boy Love'

That's from their first 11 issues.

http://www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html
 
Paidika articles:

On Seeing a Beautiful Boy at Play by Nathaniel Parker Willis

The Life of a Christian Boy-Lover: The Poet Willem De Merode (1887-1939)
by Hans Hafkamp

Thc Hysteria Over Child Pornography and Paedophilia
by Laurence A. Stanley, Esq.

The Irresistible Beauty of Boys: Middle Eastern Attitudes About Boy-Love
by Maarten Schild

The Boy-Lover by Edward Perry Warren

"The World is Bursting with Adults, so I'm always Glad to See a
Little Girl" by Theo Sandfort

Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children. Interiew: Kate Millett
by Mark Blasius

Karol Szymanowski, His Boy-Love Novel, and the Boy He Loved
by Hubert Kennedy

Time of Youth, Time of Beauty; The Poet Jan Hanlo (1912-1969)
by Hans Hafkamp

The entire text of Edward Brongersma's early book 'In Defence of Boy Love'

That's from their first 11 issues.

http://www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/Paidika.html

Let's take one of them: Maarten Schild. Is he, in that article, advocating pedophilia?
 
Let's take one of them: Maarten Schild. Is he, in that article, advocating pedophilia?
Or how about Laurence Stanley...
An American lawyer who specialized in defending those accused of child pornography is under arrest in Brazil, charged with violating that country's laws against child exploitation.

Lawrence Allen Stanley, 47, was arrested June 8 after police in Salvador say they found more than 1,000 photographs and more than 100 videos of young girls in swimsuits and underwear. The arrest came days after the Brazilian magazine Epocha reported that Stanley, a fugitive who has lived in Brazil since 1998, had built an international business photographing Brazilian girls and selling their photos through the Internet.
...
Stanley has a criminal record. He was charged with "sexual aggression" against a girl in Quebec in 1990, but Canadian officials never sought extradition. In 1998, a Dutch court convicted Stanley in absentia for sexual abuse of three children ages 7 to 10, Epocha reported. He faces a three-year prison sentence if he returns to the Netherlands. Brazil has no extradition
article
 
Karol Szymanowski, His Boy-Love Novel, and the Boy He Loved
by Hubert Kennedy

I was not able to find this particular article, but I did find Hubert Kennedy is all about man-boy love in Anarchist of Love, The Secret Life of John Henry Mackay by Hubert Kennedy

Not only those of use who share his individualist anarchist views, but all of us in the gay movement—and boy-lovers especially—can rejoice in the tradition of John Henry Mackay: his struggle for equal freedom of all, for the recognition of our love as the equal of any other—the struggle of the individual for freedom from all oppression of whatever kind.
 
OK, I officially withdraw my notion that this is solely a scholarly journal. We have a journal that re-prints poems about boy-love, at least one of the author's is pro boy-love and another is a convicted pedophile.

It may be the case that this is a NAMBLA-esque type situation. It's not illegal but a lot of time is spent justifying man-child "love".

Creepy.
 
"He shows how children from abusive environments can be effectively treated by a move to a new home and affectionate stimulation of the skin senses. Data collected on more than thirty modern cases of the Kaspar Hauser syndrome are presented to support Money's arguments."


from a Prometheus title.

edited to add: this quote is from Prometheus' website entry for the book:
Kaspar Hauser - Psychosocial Dwarfism.



The author is advocating petting of a child in what most people would consider an inappropriate manner in order to prevent them from having arrested mental development of Kaspar Hauser syndrome in the book of the same name by John Money for Prometheus. "Skin senses" is a code term used in the "scientific study" of paedophilia. In this case the author wants a child removed from their non-petting parents home which he characterizes as abusive and placed with strangers who will perform this therapy.


I hope this one example suffices to meet the demand for an example of a Prometheus title that condones this behavior. The author is not only condoning paedophilia, he is pushing it to judges, social workers and child care workers as a form of therapy for children with arrested mental development.

Sarcasm: I am sure there is no shortage of paedophiles willing to share their homes with a child in need of this therapy.
 
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OK, I officially withdraw my notion that this is solely a scholarly journal. We have a journal that re-prints poems about boy-love, at least one of the author's is pro boy-love and another is a convicted pedophile.

It may be the case that this is a NAMBLA-esque type situation. It's not illegal but a lot of time is spent justifying man-child "love".

Creepy.
I would no more provide consulting services to this journal than I would for a terrorist journal, legal or not. Just how far does one need to pick at this scab before the puss of paedophilia starts to ooze out?
 
I agree with Harry, the wording to me indicates more than a scholarly investigation into paedophilia. I hold that if that was the case then they would not use titles such as "The Irresistible Beauty of Boys: Middle Eastern Attitudes About Boy-Love by Maarten Schild", since "boy-love" is not the technical term, whether someone believes it is right or wrong the technical scholarly term is still paedophilia.

And it's very rare I do this as I'm not one that believes that you have to denounce everything however can I just say that this sentence "but all of us in the gay movement—and boy-lovers especially—can rejoice in the tradition of John Henry Mackay:" made my skin crawl and all I can say in response is “No we bloody well shouldn’t”. Paedophilia is no more homosexuality then it is heterosexuality.
 
OK, I officially withdraw my notion that this is solely a scholarly journal. We have a journal that re-prints poems about boy-love, at least one of the author's is pro boy-love and another is a convicted pedophile.

It may be the case that this is a NAMBLA-esque type situation. It's not illegal but a lot of time is spent justifying man-child "love".

Creepy.

I agree with Harry, the wording to me indicates more than a scholarly investigation into paedophilia. I hold that if that was the case then they would not use titles such as "The Irresistible Beauty of Boys: Middle Eastern Attitudes About Boy-Love by Maarten Schild", since "boy-love" is not the technical term, whether someone believes it is right or wrong the technical scholarly term is still paedophilia.

Whoa. Just a moment. The journal's goal is to document pedophilia.

If you want to document something, you can't exclude the things you don't like. Heck, I couldn't write about supernatural subjects...

from a Prometheus title.

Wrong. It is from a review of a book from Prometheus.

The author is advocating petting of a child in what most people would consider an inappropriate manner in order to prevent them from having arrested mental development of Kaspar Hauser syndrome in the book of the same name by John Money for Prometheus. "Skin senses" is a code term used in the scientific study of pedophilia.

Evidence?

In this case the author wants a child removed from their non-petting "abusive" parents home and placed with strangers who will do this.

I hope this one example suffices to meet the demand for an example of a Prometheus title that condones this behavior.

I don't see any evidence that this book condones pedophilia.
 
Actually the blurb I placed in quotes is from Prometheus' website for their catalogue entry of the book so they agree with it.
 
Actually the blurb I placed in quotes is from Prometheus' website for their catalogue entry of the book so they agree with it.

Regardless of lack of proper references, it still is a review. Nowhere does it say anything about pedophilia, or gives any indication that Prometheus condones pedophilia.

Where do you see that Prometheus condones pedophilia in that "blurb"?

Where is your evidence that "skin senses" is a "code term used in the scientific study of pedophilia"?
 
I would no more provide consulting services to this journal than I would for a terrorist journal, legal or not. Just how far does one need to pick at this scab before the puss of paedophilia starts to ooze out?

Agreed.

A journal that contains articles about pedophilia by (but not all by) pedophiles and people who are pro-"man-boy love". What scholarly aspiration is this? What is the purpose of documenting pro-pedophilia information? Who is the intended audience of this journal?

I think a more legitimate journal would question why some people feel the need to "love" a child instead of trying to justify it.

Also if you take a look at the other journals listed with Paidika you get some interesting titles...

http://www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/index.html#NAMBLA-Bull

-Boy Love World
-NAMBLA Bulletin
-Uncommon Desires

Here's the justification for Uncommon Desires existence...
http://www.paedosexualitaet.de/jour/UDN.html

Published bi-monthly, each issue of uncommon desires newsletter contains 20 pages (1/2 A4) w/ serious articles, poems, fiction, art and photography concerned with the social, erotic, and spiritual attraction to girls under the age of 16, as well as commentary and discussion pertaining to legal, socio-political and psychological issues surrounding depictions of minors, censorship, government intrusion into private lives, and eroticized age-disparate relationships between adults and those whom society has designated as "children". UDN does not take personal ads, is not a contact service, and does not violate any laws. The purpose of UDN is not to titillate, but to stimulate critical thought about desire and behavior in a variety of ways (as well as to celebrate desire itself, which is distinguishable from behavior). If you are offended by such ideas, you have the right not to read it. UDN does not advocate or counsel anyone to engage in illegal sexual conduct.
Puh-leeze.

Paedika is using the same guise of serious "commentary and discussion" to promote its agenda.
 
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Regardless of lack of proper references, it still is a review. Nowhere does it say anything about pedophilia, or gives any indication that Prometheus condones pedophilia.

Where do you see that Prometheus condones pedophilia in that "blurb"?

Where is your evidence that "skin senses" is a "code term used in the scientific study of pedophilia"?

You honestly don't believe they are going to admit to all you require. Everything they do is legal, just creepy, as others have characterized Paidika which is a perfectly legal organization in Holland where the late Vern Bullough served as a consultant editor for ten years, probably on a voluntary basis while also serving as a Fellow of CSCIOP although I do not know what skeptical works he has performed to earn that distinction. Do you?If you can't see the trees because the forest is blocking them so be it.

There is a site, I can't find it right now, that contains a lexicon of code-words for child porn and paedophiles. When I find it again I will let you know. I don't treasure or archive this stuff. Sorry. By the way the Prometheus blurb says the "affectionate stimulation" of the skin senses.

Figure it out.
 
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Agreed.

A journal that contains articles about pedophilia by (but not all by) pedophiles and people who are pro-"man-boy love". What scholarly aspiration is this? What is the purpose of documenting pro-pedophilia information? Who is the intended audience of this journal?

I think a more legitimate journal would question why some people feel the need to "love" a child instead of trying to justify it.

That may be.

But if there are non-pedophile academics among the authors in Paedika, why do you think these non-pedophile academics would publish in a pro-pedophilia journal?

Could it be that Vern Bullough is one such?
 
That may be.

But if there are non-pedophile academics among the authors in Paedika, why do you think these non-pedophile academics would publish in a pro-pedophilia journal?

Could it be that Vern Bullough is one such?

Non-pedophile doesn't mean anti-pedophile.

To answer your question I would like to know Vern Bullough's personal views on adults having sexual relationships with children. I can't seem to find his precise viewpoints on that.
 
You honestly don't believe they are going to admit to all you require.

I didn't ask them, I asked you. Please provide evidence of your claims.

Everything they do is legal, just creepy, as other have characterized Paidika, a perfectly legal organization where the late Vern Bullough served as a consultant editor for ten years, probably on a voluntary basis while also serving as a Fellow of CSCIOP although I do not know what skeptical works he has performed to earn that distinction. Do you?

You'll have to ask CSICOP of that.

If everything Prometheus do is legal, how can they promote pedophilia? Pedophilia is illegal.

If everything Prometheus do is legal, you can't possibly criticize them.

Agree?

If you can't see the trees because the forest is blocking them so be it.

I am asking you to back up your claims with evidence. So far, I have seen nothing but opinion from you.

There is a site, I can't find it right now, that contains a lexicon of code-words for child porn and pedophiles. When I find it again I will let you know. I don't treasure or archive this stuff. Sorry. By the way the Prometheus blurb says the "affectionate stimulation" of the skin senses.

You can't find it. Great. Allow me to clarify the situation, then:

You have not been able to back up your claim with evidence. Your claim is unfounded. Your claim is baseless.

Agree?

Why do you think a baseless claim carries any weight on a forum for skepticism? Why should we even consider your claim, if you are not able to back it up with evidence?

Do you think it would be a good idea to do your homework and have your evidence ready, before you post your accusations?
 
Non-pedophile doesn't mean anti-pedophile.

Do you think it is possible - perhaps even desirable - to be able to at least strive for an unbiased view, especially if you are an academic?

Your approach is emblematic of what I see here: When it comes to pedophilia, you just have to be an outspoken anti-pedophiliac. If you are not, then it is at least implied that you are pro-pedophilia.

As skeptics, we should at the very least be able to approach any subject in a manner as unbiased as possible.

To answer your question I would like to know Vern Bullough's personal views on adults having sexual relationships with children. I can't seem to find his precise viewpoints on that.

Unfortunately, he is dead. Unless you want to employ the services of psychics, you could ask CSICOP. Let us know what they said.
 
At the risk of being accused of bickering which is what you are doing, I have backed up my claim to the extent I am willing to in this forum and provided a direct quote from the Prometheus website. You may be badgering me to break Rule#1 but I will not and the moderators may consider this an official complaint of said badgering.

John Money is well known for his agenda elsewhere. I will provide additional examples in the days ahead if necessary. We have already seen what Paidika really is and now must stop to wonder what a person with a decade long association as a consultant for them must really believe.

Rind and Co., also cite John Money, Vern Bullough and Larry Constantine as key child sex authorities. But, Money, Johns Hopkins professor emeritus, psychiatrist and Penthouse Forum employee and Bullough, self-confessed pedophile editor of The Journal of Paedophilia, reassure their Journal of Paedophilia pedophiles that incest and adult-child sex are harmless. And, psychologist Constantine, also a Penthouse hireling, would legalize child pornography and incest to provide better paying jobs for children.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Sex/Doc-Sex-Pedophilia&Incest/Pedophilia&TheAPA.htm


Bullough was a consultant to Paidika but apparently was the editor of the Journal of Paedophilia as well.


Just because something is legal does not make it right. There are lines beyond which we won't cross because we have morals and ethics,not
just lawyers.
 
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Do you think it is possible - perhaps even desirable - to be able to at least strive for an unbiased view, especially if you are an academic?

He may be unbiased. He may also be of the opinion that it's possible for men to have healthy sexual relationships with children. He may also be of the opinion that it is not. We don't know yet.

Your approach is emblematic of what I see here: When it comes to pedophilia, you just have to be an outspoken anti-pedophiliac. If you are not, then it is at least implied that you are pro-pedophilia.

It's not about being rabidly anti-pedophilia. It's about giving serious consideration to something as a scholarly journal when it has articles written by pedophiles.

As skeptics, we should at the very least be able to approach any subject in a manner as unbiased as possible.

Exactly. At first look it appeared that this journal was 100% on the up-and-up. In light of the new evidence I've changed my mind.
 
At the risk of being accused of bickering which is what you are doing

In which case I await the mod's ruling on your complaint. Surely, you cannot accuse me of bickering without reporting me - the same offense that got you suspended.

If you won't report me, I'll report myself.

, I have backed up my claim to the extent I am willing to in this forum and provided a direct quote from the Prometheus website.

I'm sorry, but it is not a question of whether you want to back up your claim or not. This is a forum for skeptics. Either you back up your claim, or you admit that you can't back up your claim with evidence. It's that simple.

You may be badgering me to break Rule#1 but I will not and the moderators may consider this an official complaint of said badgering.

If you think I am badgering you to break rule #1, I urge you to report me to the moderators.

John Money is well known for his agenda elsewhere.

Not to me. Please state what he is known for elsewhere, and provide evidence.

I will provide additional examples in the days ahead if necessary. We have already seen what Paidika really is and now must stop to wonder what a person with a decade long association as a consultant for them must really believe.

While you find evidence of your claims, I'll repost the questions for you here:

Where do you see that Prometheus condones pedophilia in that "blurb"?

Where is your evidence that "skin senses" is a "code term used in the scientific study of pedophilia"?

If everything Prometheus do is legal, how can they promote pedophilia? Pedophilia is illegal.

If everything Prometheus do is legal, you can't possibly criticize them. Agree?

You have not been able to back up your claim with evidence. Your claim is unfounded. Your claim is baseless. Agree?

Why do you think a baseless claim carries any weight on a forum for skepticism? Why should we even consider your claim, if you are not able to back it up with evidence?

Do you think it would be a good idea to do your homework and have your evidence ready, before you post your accusations?

Bullough was a consultant to Paidika but apparently was the editor of the Journal of Paedophilia as well.

Huh? You take the opinion of someone as evidence? Do you know who Reisman is?

Judith A. Reisman is the president of Restoring Social Virtue & Purity to America (RSVPAmerica) that distributes material that criticises modern sexual viewpoints and sex education based on Alfred Kinsey's work. She also lobbies against pornography, and alleges that there is a large-scale effort by "establishment media" to "recruit" children into homosexuality. Since the late 1980s, she has extensively criticized Kinsey and the Kinsey Reports. Her publications have been frequently distributed and funded by conservative organizations, and used as arguments to reduce funding for sexology, which, Reisman claims, is not really a science but a cover for pro-homosexual/pedophile campaigners to obtain funding.
Source

Yeah. I check. She's a modern-day Comstock.

Can you please point to Paedika's own list of editors, instead of relying on the opinion of someone else who clearly has a very biased view on this?

Just because something is legal does not make it right. There are lines beyond which we won't cross because we have morals and ethics,not just lawyers.

Indeed. But who draw those moral and ethic lines? You? If so, what do you base your decision on? Who gives you the right to determine what is right or wrong?

He may be unbiased. He may also be of the opinion that it's possible for men to have healthy sexual relationships with children. He may also be of the opinion that it is not. We don't know yet.

I didn't ask what he was. I asked if you think it is possible - perhaps even desirable - to be able to at least strive for an unbiased view, especially if you are an academic?

Do you?

It's not about being rabidly anti-pedophilia. It's about giving serious consideration to something as a scholarly journal when it has articles written by pedophiles.

A journal that is dedicated to documenting pedophilia? Doesn't that mean that you have to include pro-pedophilia works as well?

Exactly. At first look it appeared that this journal was 100% on the up-and-up. In light of the new evidence I've changed my mind.

What, exactly, is that new evidence?

No, not titles of articles. Evidence that the journal supports pedophilia.
 
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