MMR

[zakur]

Measles Vaccinations Drop in UK

Measles is posing a growing risk to children in Britain as parents decide against vaccinations for fear of side effects, and researchers warn the disease could become a constant threat to health.

British researchers report today in the journal Science that the level of vaccinated children in Britain has dropped below 80 percent and that the nation is experiencing more frequent and larger outbreaks.

Dr. Mary E. Ramsay of the Health Protection Agency, a co-author of the study, said yesterday that the level of vaccination in Britain was 92 percent in 1995, but it has been falling steadily since.

"That is why we are concerned that we will have measles re-established in the UK," she said.

Last year, there were 308 cases of measles in Britain, a small number in a country of that size, but Ramsay said that is about three times the number from 2001.

Scary.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

The best site I found for Vaccination Questions is here:

http://www.babycenter.com/vaccine

We can see what might happen if we allowed immunization levels to drop by looking at what's happened in other countries when people stopped getting their children vaccinated. When vaccinations against pertussis (whooping cough) dropped off in Great Britain in 1974, the effect was dramatic and sudden — more than 100,000 cases and 36 deaths by 1978. In the former Soviet Union, a drop in childhood immunization rates (and adult booster shots) led to a major epidemic of diphtheria in 1994 — nearly 50,000 cases and 1,700 deaths (up from 839 cases in 1989). Immunization rates have also recently dropped in the Netherlands, and in the past year Dutch doctors have identified 2,300 cases of measles, mostly among kids 6 to 10 years old who were never vaccinated. Three children have died and 53 have been hospitalized for complications such as encephalitis (swelling in the brain).

Encephalitis can cause autism, and here are 53 non-vaxxed kids now at risk in 2002-2003.

Then there are the 1700 deaths that could have been prevented by a shot that may cause an allergic reaction in one in a million. I think taking the chances with the allergy reaction would have been less risky.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hmmm... I'm a third-year medical student seeing patients every day right here in the good 'ole U.S. medical system, and no one has ever talked about, described, or educated me on "leaky gut" syndrome. You'd think that if this was such a problem that I would've learned about it by now.

Guess I'm getting gypped in my medical education.

-TT

Yeah, you need to go to those holistic colleges for a better education on things like leaky gut and learn to treat it with all natural remedies that are unregulated. You are so lacking in knowledge on the 'viruses' that are part of the natural flora in the gut I bet too.

One of the 'experts' said she read about it in her college text book ya know! It was part of the 'required' reading. How come it's not part of your required reading?

 

[BTox]

Hmmm... I'm a third-year medical student seeing patients every day right here in the good 'ole U.S. medical system, and no one has ever talked about, described, or educated me on "leaky gut" syndrome. You'd think that if this was such a problem that I would've learned about it by now.

Guess I'm getting gypped in my medical education.

-TT

Have you learned about the epidemic of candidias? Millions suffer from this condition unnecessarily, and it contributes to leaky gut... or is it the other way around?

You know, you are wasting your time at med school, as they have it all wrong. You really should be going after a ND. And it is so much easier, too. Probably can get one via the internet in 6 months!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Hmmm... I'm a third-year medical student seeing patients every day right here in the good 'ole U.S. medical system, and no one has ever talked about, described, or educated me on "leaky gut" syndrome. You'd think that if this was such a problem that I would've learned about it by now.

Guess I'm getting gypped in my medical education.

-TT

PM Bigfig. She can edumacate you.

It's fun to watch these neophytes discussing vaccines without any input from the master!

 

[BillyJoe]

This thread is no fun.
Where is the opposition?

(Very informative though)

 

[Dr. Imago]

Have you learned about the epidemic of candidias? Millions suffer from this condition unnecessarily, and it contributes to leaky gut... or is it the other way around?

You know, you are wasting your time at med school, as they have it all wrong. You really should be going after a ND. And it is so much easier, too. Probably can get one via the internet in 6 months!

Haha. Yeah, and do you think any of these folks cares (or even knows, for that matter) that Candida albicans is actually part of everyone's normal flora? It only becomes pathogenic when there's something else going on (e.g., immuno-incompetence, etc.). Then again, we aspiring doctors are actually taught to distinguish the smoke from the fire and, contrary to what a lot of woo-woo's would have you believe, identify and treat underlying causes.

In other words, if someone truly has a leaky gut, they're going to have a heck of a lot more problems than a few, simple, vague complaints. Where did this whole nutty "leaky gut" thing start anyway? I truly do not know who came up with this nonsense. Probably the same folks who coined "partial birth" abortion (but, that's a separate and far more controversial subject we probably don't want to get into on this thread).

-TT

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Trust me, there are lots of folks who feel vaccines cause leaky gut. I'll get the links! I'm sure it originated in New Zealand, and if not there, then the UK.

Iit's definitely one of the holistic persons that writes on the subject.

"I mainly want to connect to mother's hearts. To show them that their instincts are the most precious thing they have, and to show them the means by which the medical profession "shuts" us down, and makes us feel that we know nothing...."

Who else would write agains 'mainstream medicine' like that?

I know of a Hilary Butler in New Zealand who is a secretary. Her backers call her a researcher though. She wants to write a book against vaccines. You can see this

Here

I look forward to a book that describes the hidden dangers of vaccines and the nutritional strategies to overcome vaccine damage.

Thanks to you, I was able to get a series of state-of-the-art laboratory tests done. These showed that Magnus had severe dysbiosis and suffered from leaky gut syndrome. He was riddled with fungus and parasites and their toxins were odged in his body. The laboratory commented that the levels of microbial metabolites were among the highest ever recorded. He was in a bad way. The vaccines had damaged his gut wall, his digestive system was not working properly, proteins were bring broken down into peptides instead of amino-acids and these and other semi-digested foods were leaking through his damaged gut and causing havoc.

You know, I've seen that exact same story on other sites, just the name of the child changed.

http://health.consumercide.com/vacc_magnus.html

Leaky Gut Syndrome, breaking the vicious cycle


Here is that 'doctor's' site

INTEGRATED MEDICINE couples the latest scientific advances with the most profound insights of ancient healing systems, giving you the best ways to preserve health, increase longevity and speed recovery from illness.

INTEGRATED MEDICINE couples the latest scientific advances with the most profound insights of ancient healing systems, giving you the best ways to preserve health, increase longevity and speed recovery from illness.


We are on the brink of a revolution in health care which is being driven not by technology but by the recognition that healing people is more effective than treating diseases. The table below illustrates the evolution of these discoveries

Geez. Where did this 'doctor' go to school? I'm trying to find out. Okay, he went to Harvard, but I've seen people stray from the mainstream to sell books and alternative remedies.

Power Healing: Use the New Integrated Medicine to Cure Yourself (Random House, 1998)--Galland has emerged as one of the country's most thoughtful and articulate advocates of holistic and integrated medicine.

I read his causes of leaky gut, but there was nothing on vaccines.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Okay, here's someone talking leaky gut and vaccines.

Maybe peoole are twisting up Galland's words?

The next piece of the puzzle would be to learn that high serotonin is linked o the leaky gut.

I believe that Dr. Michael Gershon at Columbia Presbyterian
has given us that information in his research on intestinal problems and SSRIs, indicating that these side effects come from the high serotonin. The answers to this connection should be found in his new book "The Gut Brain".

For additional information on vaccines producing problems in brain function and brain toxicity go to "US Congressman Dan Burton Requests Immediate Vaccine Recall." Congressman Burton is concerned about the mercury content in vaccines..

http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/2ndQtr_2001/31801New.html

One report from the Royal Free
Hospital in London has now found that many autistic children suffer from a condition know as 'leaky gut syndrome,' a disease which damages the walls of the intestine and is often found in children with autism, but is rare among
other children. Research suggests that these symptoms could be triggered by a reaction to the MMR jab.

Hmm, maybe they just haven't covered leaky gut in your courses at med school. I mean, they really link MMR to leaky gut which links to autism don't ya know!

Government officials treated the results with caution yesterday. David
Salisbury, head of vaccines at the Department of Health, said his advisors
had examined evidence from the Royal Free hospital and could not support
their findings: 'We have looked at this work and the conclusions are not
convincing,' he said.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh, more proof vaccines cause brain damage AND HIV.

Look at injection paralysis, SV40 and HepC contamination of the vaccines, polio vaccine relation to the spread and origin of HIV

A recent study that is the first test of mumps vaccine for neurovirulence showed that the vaccine virus causes more brain damage than some wild-type mumps strains

You wonder why parents are alarmed?? Ugh.

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sh...70095&perpage=20&highlight=leaky&pagenumber=2

Why is it, that children, given MMR, suffer most with crohn's disease, with leaky gut - with measles virus in the gut, measles virus in the brain?

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=69074&highlight=leaky

Howzabout looking at the gut flora, and figuring out what everything is so important.?

Howzabout looking at Tissier, and Olsen, and what they said happened to the gut, when things went "wrong" and actually putting a thinking cap on?

Is the only thing they are interested in, anthropology, and how it shot from A to B, and who gave what to whom?

Actually, I don't believe a word of it.

Gut Flora to me, isn't an appropriate topic for the evolutionists to rant on.

It's a topic of such importance, that the key thing they should be doing, is unravelling WHY it is important.

But they won't.

Because that won't earn the dollars....
?

whack. This Hilary is whack.

 

[Prester John]

Hilary certainly is whack, i've made a few posts in the mothering commune forum on vaccines, and have recieved nothing but abuse, its quite funny actually. Hilary went on and on at me because i made my location "in the middle east", where of course the legendary Prester John was supposed to have ghis kingdom.

The tactics (on the mothering forums) seem to be try to discredit posters you disagree with and hurl abuse at them. Additionally Hilary showed an unhealthy interest in attempting to find out where i work and live. Kooky. The other star in the forum is some person who calls himself insider and plays as someone in the vaccine industry letting the truth out. Its quite obvious that this person has no scientific background and no grasp of statistics. All attempts to get them to actually provide information to support their stance was met with blank refusals and insults. The last posts had then saying they would not post any more references at all, but would PM them to people who were interested. A most bizarre way to present a point. Of course i don't think they have a scientifically sustainable / valid point.

It is quite interesting being in a minority of viewpoint on a forum, i hope these forums do not treat people with opposing viewpoints as badly as i have been treated.

 

[Pycroft]

This was in the Guardian today...

According to a new book, it is not just MMR that parents should be wary of - evidence is mounting that other vaccines may have dangerous side effects

...one of the most one-sided pieces of propaganda I've ever read! Looks like the Meningitis C and the other big vaccines are in the firing line, now that these diseases are not the killers they once were, and could easily become again !

This quote really get's me upset! The Mother gets away with making her own conclusion and is not challenged by the reporter.

"Both of my children had had fits before, but these were different, deeper and longer - the longest lasted 20 minutes. She went blue and needed resuscitating. I thought she was going to die."

The kids had fits before the vaccine...and what...they had fits afterward, what a surprise!

Quite angry, I sent an e-mail to the Reader's Editor. If anyone else wants to his e-mail addy is...

reader@guardian.co.uk

Also saw this today... New mothers could be offered MMR

 

[Dr. Imago]

Okay, I've tried to educate myself a little more in the past twenty-four hours on "leaky gut" syndrome. This is what I currently understand...

Apparently, there are some inflammatory substances that weaken the endothelial tight junctions on the luminal surface of the gut. This apparently allows some larger-than-normally-allowed particles to seep between the cells of the lining of the small intestine instead of being absorbed (or not absorbed continuing in transit down the line), processed and broken down by those same cells, packaged, and the secreted on the basal side into the bloodstream.

It appears that this phenomenon may have some direct, local consequences (for example, in diseases such as Crohn's disease), but the evidence to suggest that autism results from such a condition is not a strong one. However, in some autistic children, it appears that there are abnormal intestinal findings. But, again, this is a chicken-and-egg problem and causation is not clearly established.

Furthermore, the evidence that MMR is linked to "leaky gut" is an even FARTHER step away, and there is ample evidence out there to suggest that this vaccine does not play a role in the development of autism.

Long story short, this is a very complex and controversial theory that has not been fully solved yet. The evidence does not currently point to vaccines as a culprit. Specific diseases may cause or result in the gut being more permeable than it normally should be, but beyond that there is absolutely no solid evidence that this would then cause a host of additional problems in the person who has such an abnormality. Likewise, we need to better understand the mechanisms that cause this phenomenon before any conclusions can be made about what its potential consequences are.

That's my two cents.

-TT

 

[Prester John]

"The Hib vaccine designed to fight meningitis C, however, was new, "

from Pycrofts link, the guardian newspaper site. The guardian for those who are not familair is a UK broadsheet, as in supposed to be responcible, accurate newspaper.

The Hib vaccine is for Haemophilus influenza, not (Neisseiria) meningitis (group) C.Differrent organisms entirely.

completely wrong. again . where will the anti vaccinators be if/when large outbreaks occur that really kill and maim children, they will not be around to be held responcible for their ill founded opinions.

btw Pyrcroft, im in cardiff too

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hilary certainly is whack, i've made a few posts in the mothering commune forum on vaccines, and have recieved nothing but abuse, its quite funny actually. Hilary went on and on at me because i made my location "in the middle east", where of course the legendary Prester John was supposed to have ghis kingdom.

The tactics (on the mothering forums) seem to be try to discredit posters you disagree with and hurl abuse at them. Additionally Hilary showed an unhealthy interest in attempting to find out where i work and live. Kooky. The other star in the forum is some person who calls himself insider and plays as someone in the vaccine industry letting the truth out. Its quite obvious that this person has no scientific background and no grasp of statistics. All attempts to get them to actually provide information to support their stance was met with blank refusals and insults. The last posts had then saying they would not post any more references at all, but would PM them to people who were interested. A most bizarre way to present a point. Of course i don't think they have a scientifically sustainable / valid point.

It is quite interesting being in a minority of viewpoint on a forum, i hope these forums do not treat people with opposing viewpoints as badly as i have been treated.

Umm, yeah, I got severely abused under the Eosine handle, and then banned for having "questionable intentions". My friend who gave me the link is still there and agreeing with all anti-vaccine and anti-'mainstream' stuff.

Then under the Aidensmom handle I asked one question (already posted link to that in the thread I started on this topic) about 'flora in the gut' and where they got the information that polio and other viruses need to be there as they were before vaccines because the viruses are natural flora of the gut and I got banned.

I like the overuse of the word "jab" in those media stories

 

[BTox]

The tactics (on the mothering forums) seem to be try to discredit posters you disagree with and hurl abuse at them. Additionally Hilary showed an unhealthy interest in attempting to find out where i work and live. Kooky. .... Its quite obvious that this person has no scientific background and no grasp of statistics. All attempts to get them to actually provide information to support their stance was met with blank refusals and insults.

It is quite interesting being in a minority of viewpoint on a forum, i hope these forums do not treat people with opposing viewpoints as badly as i have been treated.

Sadly, this appears to be very typical of woowoo sites. I've encountered virtually identical tactics by such folks on many boards. Right down to the obsession with finding out where you live and work!

 

[Ove]

Paleassseee folks, don't make Bigfig come back, that would be unbearable.

A danish couple has had their case (autism caused by MMR) rejected from two courts so far because of complete lack of evidence (other than the fact that the autism started after the kid recieved thhe shot). They are currently applying to the Minister of justice to get permission to bring the case to High Court because it is "principal".

I actually hope they get their permission because then (perhaps) we can end this story once and for all. -Well, perhaps i'm being over optimistic.

PS: Both my children HAVE recieved all their shots.

 

[BillyTK]

As a potential parent (in that my wife and I talk about having children, and then laugh at the idea of sacrificing all our material luxuries to pay for them) the whole issue is worrying, particularly with the the way the debate is conducted in the media ("callous" scientists vs. "hysterical" parents) which is exacerbated by government involvement (because we all trust the government, right?). It doesn't help when the courts rule that mothers must give their children the vaccine, with all the authoritarian implications that raises (you can do this by choice, or by force).

There's a couple of lines I'd like to quote from the Guardian book review:

Sickness is part of life, but there is a huge difference between accepting the risk of infection and consciously doing something to damage the health of one's child.
[...]
While there is a remote possibility that one's precious child could suffer lasting health consequences from vaccination, it is understandable that parents are wary of accepting blanket government health guidelines.

which imo illustrates how the government is shooting itself in the foot on this issue. I don't think anyone would claim that any medical treatment is absolutely safe (like the claims the government is making for MMR); it's always a case of offsetting the risks of treatment against the risk of non-intervention. Even with risks as low as 1 in a million, the numbers required to make immunisation effective means somebody's child is going to be affected, and the risk that it might be your child which suffers adverse affects is too worrying to contemplate.

I guess the MMR panic also plugs in to greater concerns about Big Drug Companies who put profit before consumer health (see, for instance, seroxat, medical "secrecy" and government ineptitude in general (see for instance, BSE/CJD, salmonella in eggs, foot and mouth disease [cue joke about Alistair Campbel] &c &c). How is anyone supposed to come to any kind of informed decision when the case is presented by these "bad guys"?

 

[Jon_in_london]

courts rule that mothers must give their children the vaccine,

See here: http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25237

Please note also that it was the wish of the fathers that the children should recieve vaccinations and it was them that brought the case to court, not Alistar Campbell.

Some quotes from the appeal court judges:

........I would also emphasise that the issue the judge was invited to determine was not restricted to the MMR vaccination..........

.........I should record that Dr Donegan {the mothers 'expert' and homeopath}, in supporting the mothers' objections, had not argued that the MMR vaccination was in any way to be linked with autism, nor had she argued that there was any heightened risk from giving those immunisations as one rather than three separate procedures, nor that the MMR vaccination as used in the United Kingdom contained any element of mercury......

........In reliance on the expert evidence of Dr Conway and Professor Kroll, {real doctors} the judge concluded in relation to each immunisation and in relation to each child that the benefits of the procedure outweighed the risks.............

..........Dr Donegan's report was based on no independent research, and most of the published papers cited by her in support of her views turned out either to support the contrary position or at least to give no support to her own. Not to mince words, the court below was presented with junk science.................

...........there was strong scientific evidence that the risks of not immunising children were real and in many instances serious: tetanus, meningitis C, mumps, measles and rubella presenting what Professor Kroll characterised as 'a plausible risk of severe illness and death'; that the effectiveness of the vaccines was high; and that their known side-effects were rare and not life-threatening............

not even Dr Donegan suggested that there was a scientific case for linking it {autism} to the MMR vaccine.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Billy, also bear in mind what you are saying-

You dont trust MMR because:

You dont trust the gov. Would you trust MMR if the gov. said its bad?

You dont trust big industry. Would you trust MMR if big industry said its bad?

You dont trust scientists. Would you trust MMR if the world scientific community said it was bad?

So basically you just know its bad...because....because.....?????