Translated: I can't win the debate with logic so I'm going to cover my ears and shart shouting blah blah blah.
Moderated MLM Crap :(
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Translated: I can't win the debate with logic so I'm going to cover my ears and shart shouting blah blah blah.
You Yeah, I watching Wimbledon a few months ago. Terrible the way John McEnroe has to keep playing on the Senior's tour because he needs the money. And that Bill Gates! He had to work all the way up until last year at Microsoft! Poor guy must be hard up. Not to mention Steve Jobs ... guys fighting cancer and he has to drag himself out of his hospital bed to earn a few bucks at an Apple conference. It's tough, but heck, if he'd actually made any money I'm sure he'd rather being staring at the ceiling doing nothing for the rest of his life
Still working because they have to, poor souls.
These guys don't show off wealth as a means to profit from downline. Diamonds do.
I believe the originator of the tools systems is Yager. All other tool companies are offshoots of Yager and there is plenty of evidence that they all have unethical teaching sprinkled in. Even if there's only a handful of criticism about a particular group, there's a chance that the one IBO blogging sat in an audience of 10,000 when he witnessed something unethical. Network 21 is not clean with regards to this.
Check out this statement from someone on Icerat's own forum. He is apparently told a lie that Diamonds do not profit from the tools.
Re: "Check Upline"
by Multimillionaire » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:51 pm
Multimillionaire wrote:
Non-business related issues can include financial issues within ones life. I have been taught that it is wise to discuss financial issues with a growing upline. Dave Severn has told me that he can save me lots of time and revenue if I will talk with him b4 making financial decisions.
I understand what you are saying. In terms of AMO (aka BSM's) one of the last times I spoke with Dave, I asked him how much of his Amway profits were from the sale of BSM's. He then went on to explain that neither himself, nor any Diamonds within WWDB's profit one penny from the sale of BSM's. Instead the profits go towards the expansion of WWDB's itself.
Ain't it great!
Re: "Check Upline"
by Multimillionaire » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:51 pm
Multimillionaire wrote:
Non-business related issues can include financial issues within ones life. I have been taught that it is wise to discuss financial issues with a growing upline. Dave Severn has told me that he can save me lots of time and revenue if I will talk with him b4 making financial decisions.
I understand what you are saying. In terms of AMO (aka BSM's) one of the last times I spoke with Dave, I asked him how much of his Amway profits were from the sale of BSM's. He then went on to explain that neither himself, nor any Diamonds within WWDB's profit one penny from the sale of BSM's. Instead the profits go towards the expansion of WWDB's itself.
Ain't it great!
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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I'd go a few steps further than that. He made no money from Amway, but he learned. The lessons he took away are the lessons that make his career today; how to be wealth guru. He purchased the tools, went to the meetings, and quickly understood that the people making the money were the ones selling the tools and holding the meetings. So he left Amway, and is now the author of several self-help books and is able to market himself very well.
Edited by Locknar:
<SNIP>, breach of rule 11.
He claims network 21 is so pure. Try looking at this article:
FOR REAL ENTERTAINMENT - READ THE COMMENTS ON THIS LINK!
More fun: http://www.amquix.info/ibofightback_lying.html
Please do not quote large amounts of text from other sites. Additionally, breach of rule 10; do not curse in your posts or alter such words in an attempt to bypass the auto-censor.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: Locknar
Last edited by a moderator:
icerat
Philosopher
Right, so this had nothing to do with CBS signing him up -
I am a Certified Financial Planner™ and have a master’s degree in financial services. I am the president of Pacifica Wealth Advisors, a boutique wealth management firm recently ranked one of the top in the nation. I am currently completing a master’s degree in counseling psychology.
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Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Do those qualifications look extraordinary to you?
icerat
Philosopher
Look, I get it. I know how it goes. He supports Amway therefore he is not credible, QED, there are no credible sources that support Amway. 
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Look, I get it. I know how it goes. He supports Amway therefore he is not credible, QED, there are no credible sources that support Amway.
Given how bad the amway plan is I would certainly consider a financial advisor supporting amway to be the equivalent of an evolutionary biologist supporting creationism.
So does Robert advise his paying clients to join Amway as a sound way of making more money?
When I looked at the article, it didn't say Robert thought Amway was a good business, but that he did gain some insight to business having been involved. There is a difference.
And 60 minutes and Dateline indicated that Amway and the tools system was a scam.
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Zelenius
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It's refreshing to see so many good people on this forum telling the truth about Amway. It looks like the pro-Amway shills here and on other sites are becoming increasingly outnumbered and desperate. I've read through this entire thread and think it is hilarious how many times the shill has to move the goal-posts or play word games to make Amway look like an amazing business opportunity.
I was originally introduced to Amway many years ago in my late teens by an uncle of mine. I attended a few of their seminars, and was impressed at first. But the whole thing started to seem ridiculous and unrealistic and so I didn't get involved any further. Also, I'm not that materialistic, so Amway's message doesn't appeal to me. I wish my uncle had been more skeptical.
My uncle was very devoted to Amway for a few years. He bought all their products(especially the tapes and books), tried to get others to buy them, and also tried to recruit all his family and friends into his new religion. He eventually lost money and friends and alienated himself from much of his family.
Already heavily in debt, he eventually fell for another, even bigger get-rich-quick scam shortly after quitting Amway(to Amway's credit, they don't threaten to kill anyone for leaving Amway). This one robbed him of his entire life savings. The scammers got away with it because they knew how to play him right(he met one of them through Amway). He filed for bankruptcy, and his wife divorced him soon after.
As if this wasn't enough, after making a modest financial recovery with his business over the course of several years, he loses it all to yet another scam. He had to borrow heavily from the few friends he had left since no bank would ever give him a loan, and almost no one in the family has anything to do with him anymore. I haven't seen him for 15 years.
One thing I wonder about my uncle is if all those seminars and inspirational tapes and books softened him up to fall for all those other scams he fell for after quitting Amway(he didn't have a reputation for being gullible before joining Amway, though he was never that bright to begin with). If I remember correctly, he tended to blame himself for failing at Amway, and may have never understood that it was a big scam or at least not a good business opportunity.
I still remember those crazy seminars and how they told everyone that joining the Amway cult will likely lead to yachts, exotic vacations surrounded by hot bikini babes, and shiny expensive cars, among other symbols of wealth. Everyone is told at the seminars and in the "tools" that they have all this unfulfilled potential, but to realize this potential we must avoid those small-minded "dream killers"(skeptical family members and friends).
The story about my stupid uncle is true. There are many other people out there just like him who have fallen for Amway and others MLMs. The few people I've met who claimed they were very successful at Amway usually seemed sleazy or I would find out years later they were up to their eyeballs in debt.
The person who said before that the people who regularly attend these seminars are mostly fools and misfits was spot on.
I was originally introduced to Amway many years ago in my late teens by an uncle of mine. I attended a few of their seminars, and was impressed at first. But the whole thing started to seem ridiculous and unrealistic and so I didn't get involved any further. Also, I'm not that materialistic, so Amway's message doesn't appeal to me. I wish my uncle had been more skeptical.
My uncle was very devoted to Amway for a few years. He bought all their products(especially the tapes and books), tried to get others to buy them, and also tried to recruit all his family and friends into his new religion. He eventually lost money and friends and alienated himself from much of his family.
Already heavily in debt, he eventually fell for another, even bigger get-rich-quick scam shortly after quitting Amway(to Amway's credit, they don't threaten to kill anyone for leaving Amway). This one robbed him of his entire life savings. The scammers got away with it because they knew how to play him right(he met one of them through Amway). He filed for bankruptcy, and his wife divorced him soon after.
As if this wasn't enough, after making a modest financial recovery with his business over the course of several years, he loses it all to yet another scam. He had to borrow heavily from the few friends he had left since no bank would ever give him a loan, and almost no one in the family has anything to do with him anymore. I haven't seen him for 15 years.
One thing I wonder about my uncle is if all those seminars and inspirational tapes and books softened him up to fall for all those other scams he fell for after quitting Amway(he didn't have a reputation for being gullible before joining Amway, though he was never that bright to begin with). If I remember correctly, he tended to blame himself for failing at Amway, and may have never understood that it was a big scam or at least not a good business opportunity.
I still remember those crazy seminars and how they told everyone that joining the Amway cult will likely lead to yachts, exotic vacations surrounded by hot bikini babes, and shiny expensive cars, among other symbols of wealth. Everyone is told at the seminars and in the "tools" that they have all this unfulfilled potential, but to realize this potential we must avoid those small-minded "dream killers"(skeptical family members and friends).
The story about my stupid uncle is true. There are many other people out there just like him who have fallen for Amway and others MLMs. The few people I've met who claimed they were very successful at Amway usually seemed sleazy or I would find out years later they were up to their eyeballs in debt.
The person who said before that the people who regularly attend these seminars are mostly fools and misfits was spot on.
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Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Look, I get it. I know how it goes. He supports Amway therefore he is not credible, QED, there are no credible sources that support Amway.
I think that if you want to tout a guys credentials as part of your argument then it's certainly legitimate to look at what those credentials are, don't you?
For example, being a "Certified Financial Planner" requires about the same amount of coursework as a typical 3 credit hour college course. The CFP board which issues this certification isn't related to any kind of government or regulative body, and exists only for the purpose of issuing this CFP certification and thus promoting the people who pay them for the coursework and the licensing. People who pursue this certification do so only for the ability to add "CFP" to their business cards, getting the certification doesn't enable them to do or sell anything they couldn't do without this certification.
Not that that's a bad thing at all, it's not. It's just that in my opinion that certification is more marketing than substance. I personally would be more impressed with someone who maintains their Series 6 and 7 certifications (among many others), which actually are required by the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority and must be earned before an agent can sell certain financial products.
As far as his other credentials, certainly having a master's degree is better than not having one. Being the president of a business...? That's easy to accomplish, but it doesn't necessarily mean the business is successful or good for it's clients. It's nice that the business was ranked one of the top in the nation, but before I take that seriously I'd want to know who did the ranking and what criteria they judged by. A master's degree in psychology? That strikes me as being kind of a weird combination with finance. One could certainly understand how a psychology degree would be useful in self-promotion, but it's hard to imagine how it would make a person a better financial planner.
Mycroft
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It's one of the more insidious things about the program. It's sold in gatherings that resemble revival meetings and people that fail blame themselves very much in the same way that people who pray to Jesus for healing blame themselves for being sinners when Jesus fails to heal them.
Almo
Masterblazer
Mao used the power of self-blame. It's getting fuzzy, but I seem to remember one of Mao's high-level guys had to self-criticize at one of the big meetings for 3 days straight.
Mycroft
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The most important difference between buyers club points and Amway points is nobody is telling you that you’re going to be able to make a living by accumulating enough points from your grocery store. All you’re doing is saving a few dollars on fresh fruit, or whatever the product is, you’re not “building a business”.
It seems like a lot of your arguments depend on changing definitions. Amway points are a commission structure when you want to tout it as an amazing business opportunity, but it’s just a “buyers club” incentive when the business opportunity fails.
If XS could compete with Red Bull in the real world, do you think 1/3rd owner Mr. Duncan would be in bankruptcy?
And yet nobody can seem to find this good Amway where people are not soaked for whatever they can afford (and sometimes can’t afford) in motivational CD’s, books and meetings and where people who enter the program stand a better than even chance of making a decent income at it. If this fantasy Amway exists, maybe you need to provide evidence of it.
Not at all a comparable analogy.
If I take a job in commission-only sales with no draw (and I have spent years living on a compensation program like that) it’s very relevant to learn that 99.9% of the people taking that position don’t hit the commission, and most of those that do only earn token commissions.
Look, “immersion courses” where the whole family travels for a month to France or Spain cost money. And the truth is Amway eats up spare time, it doesn’t create it.
Then show us some evidence. I find your anecdotes unconvincing.
“Cahsflow problems” means you don’t have the income to support your basic needs plus your debt, but often the term is used as an excuse to cover bad money-management.
Yeah, I watching Wimbledon a few months ago. Terrible the way John McEnroe has to keep playing on the Senior's tour because he needs the money. And that Bill Gates! He had to work all the way up until last year at Microsoft! Poor guy must be hard up. Not to mention Steve Jobs ... guys fighting cancer and he has to drag himself out of his hospital bed to earn a few bucks at an Apple conference. It's tough, but heck, if he'd actually made any money I'm sure he'd rather being staring at the ceiling doing nothing for the rest of his life
Still working because they have to, poor souls.
The difference is Bill Gates, John McEnroe and others didn’t get into their business expressly for the purpose of freeing up time to spend with their families.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Self-sacrifice is also an important part of maintaining loyalty in cults. Jim Jones started by asking people for community service (which was a good thing), but the demands would keep increasing until it reached the point were people were allowing their children to be raised by other people and married couples were trading sex partners.
Amway certainly isn't that extreme, but the self-rationalizing behavior is certainly encouraged once people have paid the fee to become an IBO, then have built a history of paying for the meetings, CD's and books.
icerat
Philosopher
Ahh, you've got to love the anti-mlm zealots.They publish claim after unsupported false claims and even abuse. They read others unsupported and often false claims and accept them without question.
But the moment someone challenges their world view ... Prove it! Provide evidence!
I've provided plenty, you chose to ignore it. Little point providing even more is there?
But the moment someone challenges their world view ... Prove it! Provide evidence!
I've provided plenty, you chose to ignore it. Little point providing even more is there?
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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What evidence have you shown and what claims have you proven?
What specific claims have we/I made that you want evidence for?
Personally I think part of the evidence here is the multitude of people who have come forward with their stories. Again, I've personally been involved and seen information on tools profit with my own eyes. Others here have been involved in various capacities. You admittedly have a low level of success in amway and aren't in a position to have personal knowledge about high level profits. What else is there to say other than caveat emptor?