Moderated MLM Crap :(

[icerat]

This is going to be a problem if we are trying to answer the question, "Is MLM a good business model?" and we can't agree on what "good" means in this context.

Yup.

We might as well call that group of people "customers."

I entirely agree. Which means if you're analysing whether it's a "good business" or not you shouldn't be looking at these guys profit/loss, which is what virtually all "critical" analysis of MLM does.

More confounding, people can change category, in both directions, at any time.

I would like to use profit and money as the relevant metric. Whatever else Amway may provide, that is not "business." I claim this in the same way I might say that a church isn't a business model, even though, in a sense, they provide a service and receive compensation for it. The main purpose of a church (Scientology aside) isn't to make money, it's to promote a religious viewpoint in service of a deity and holy writ.

Now, if the main purpose of MLM isn't to make money for the participants, then it is something other than a business. It may be a hobby or a charity or a buyer's club... but what defines a business is the profit motive.

Is this fair or would you like to use another idea of what a business is?

Ok, well first of all MLM isn't a business per se, it's a marketing strategy. Amway, as a company, has two purposes. One is to sell it's products. The other is to offer a low-cost, low-risk business opportunity.

Ultimately MLM is a marketing strategy to sell more products. That strategy is used by Amway, and active participants. Obviously of course, a desired side effect of selling more products is making more money.

So the question is - does the MLM marketing strategy work?

In Amway's case, the answer is clearly yes.

For people who join Amway, or other MLMs, the first thing you have to ask is - "are they applying the strategy"?

When I was purchasing products to sell to my club, I was not using MLM at all. I was engaged in simple level one direct selling.

This is the problem with trying to analyse this. "Amway distributor" (ie potentially, because they signed a contract) covers a broad, non-homogenous, group of people. Some who just want the products, some who just want a little income, virtually a direct sales job. Others who want a more business-like operation. Others are motivated by elements of all three, and the degree to which any of them is important to an individual can change back and forth at any time.

Then within that last group you have people, including large well defined groups, using different strategies. Some focus more on recruiting new reps, and less on each rep creating customer sales. Some focus on no full retail customer sales at all, instead treating it more like a buying club. And there's everything in between.

On top of that, success in developing any business takes time. At any given point in Amway, you'll have people have been developing their business for more than 50 years (there's 3rd generation family businesses now) and others who joined in the last few minutes.

So, like any large, non-homogenous group, it's very very difficult to analyse. What I think is clear is that some simple "income average" is virtually meaningless. Heck, average isn't even used for official household income statistics. You can't use it for a group that's not close to a normal distribution. The only reason MLMs report it is because the FTC in their bureaucratic wisdom back in the 1970s demanded it.

 

[icerat]

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

Great, then until you (or joecool) can prove your claims, shut up.

Until then I'll go with the data I've seen with my own eyes, which shows that in the organisation I work with, the vast majority earn significantly more from their Amway businesses.

 

[icerat]

He makes the bulk of his income selling energy drink to Amway, which re-sells it to it's captive market.

How is it a captive market?

Non sequitur. I'm not fond of evangelical Christians either, but the issue here isn't their religion. I only skimmed through the recordings myself, so if they talked about God or global warming, I missed it.

It was merely a warning I suppose. Believe me, the proselytizing of politics and religion via Amway has been a major issue. A lot of criticism around the company has been on that point, and for some groups it's been entirely well-founded criticism.

From the recordings they appear to be talking to a crowd attending a seminar. These materials are sold as "tools" to people who have already signed up. They're certainly getting the crowd worked up over the dream of huge income...are you suggesting that's not okay before they sign up but suddenly becomes acceptable after they do? What kind of logic is that?

Haven't listened to the whole thing, about half way through and haven't heard any of that yet. Even so, is there a difference? I have to think about it. The law would say yes, because you're not supposed to promote an opportunity with "non-typical" results. Is it OK, ethically, to motivate, rather than sell per se, through "non-typical" results? I suppose that depends on context. If it's not accompanied by the context of "it takes a lot of hard work etc etc", then no. If it is, then I think it's fine, it's about what's possible.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Great, then until you (or joecool) can prove your claims, shut up.

Until then I'll go with the data I've seen with my own eyes, which shows that in the organisation I work with, the vast majority earn significantly more from their Amway businesses.

Sorry, but you are the one making the claim that amway is a good business. Feel free to prove it. You've got your logic reversed, as usual.

 

[NewtonTrino]

So the question is - does the MLM marketing strategy work?

In Amway's case, the answer is clearly yes.

I think it's clear that the MLM strategy works for the amway corporation. That tells us nothing about whether or not it's a good idea to get involved with amway.

In fact amway is simply just providing cover for the kingpin distributors to sell their motivational tools. This is why they will never ever truly crack down on that stuff. They provide cover with "legit" products so that the tools can be sold to the real customers, the distributors themselves.

You are doing the same thing here, conflating the success of amway corporation with the success of individuals who get involved.

If this business is so great icerat why can you not find a SINGLE successful distributor to come on here and share their tax return information. Just find us one diamond who's willing to do that and prove to us how great amway is.

Unfortunately you can't and they won't because it would clearly show the scam. Don't give me BS about tax returns being secret, any individual can show their info if they want. You'd think diamonds would WANT their downline to see how much money they are making. Apparently not though.

 

[icerat]

Sorry, but you are the one making the claim that amway is a good business. Feel free to prove it. You've got your logic reversed, as usual.

I've never made any such secific and broad claim. I happen to think it is for some people. See message two in this thread for an example. See Amway Wiki for others. See Achieve Magazine for more. See Amway Amagram UK for more. etc etc etc

You on the otherhand of made numerous broad, sweeping, and specific claims, based you say on actual data ... but mysteriously refuse to provide any of it.

 

[icerat]

In fact amway is simply just providing cover for the kingpin distributors to sell their motivational tools.

So why aren't the folk in Forbes billionaires and billion dollar company lists? How have they managed to hide?

This is why they will never ever truly crack down on that stuff. They provide cover with "legit" products so that the tools can be sold to the real customers, the distributors themselves.

Oh right, so terminating the contract of dozens of Diamonds over recent years, implementing strict rules on sales of BSM (tools), forcing companies to have contractual agreements and independently assessed compensation plans etc etc etc

Yup, they've never done much at all

C'mon though. You're claiming here that these companies do over $9 billion in sales a year. Evidence.

If this business is so great icerat why can you not find a SINGLE successful distributor to come on here and share their tax return information.

If I was a Diamond I wouldn't provide my tax information here. I can't ask anyone else to do it, can I?

And I know what would happen anyway. It would be challenged as fake, just like every other data that's posted you don't agree with.

Amazingly of course --- you KEEP making claims, but don't feel the need to provide any evidence at all do you?

You're making specific, serious, claims about thousands of people. Back it up, or shut up.

 

[Joecool]

Great, then until you (or joecool) can prove your claims, shut up.

Until then I'll go with the data I've seen with my own eyes, which shows that in the organisation I work with, the vast majority earn significantly more from their Amway businesses.

What kind of proof does he want? The fact that about half of the IBOs quit in the first years says a lot. The fact that the average income of an IBO is far lower than poverty in the US says a lot. The fact that part time minimum wage employees make more than Amwayers on average says a lot.

We know that "some" people make money in Amway. We know that "some" people make nice incomes from Amway. The problem is that the people who do make money in Amway, most often do so at the expense of those they are supposed to "help".

Say my nephew wanted to paint a big "S" on his chest and wrap a towel around his neck and jump off a tall building, and I tell him he'll die. He says prove it. So I cite information indicating that 99.99 percent of people die doing this. My nephew then says "see, it's possible, not everyone dies".

Isn't this Icerat's defense?

BTW, accreditation is a joke. Icerat himself wrote an article on his blog stating just that.
All they needed to do is edit bad stuff off their cds before they sell it. The real deal isn't taught in major functions anyway. It is taught in smaller "night owl" meetings or in personal one on one meetings. I recall questioning my sponsor and he said he knew that something else was said at a function but he has fresher and more applicable information given to him by upline since the function.

Icerat's article: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-global-accreditation-transformation-or-a-sad-joke/

 

[Almo]

I found a website where one can listen to some of these promotional materials for free. This is from Danny and Renate Snipes, who are pretty big among the Amway motivational crowd.


http://grooveshark.com/#/album/3d+Vision/4043582

"...I'm telling you guys there is a whole life ahead of you. The dream is real, and you can live the dreams. ..."

Woa. Thanks for that. Nice to finally hear this. Definitely cult-like. All designed to isolate you inside the business. Here are my notes I took while listening:

--------

anti-friends: come do this with us, you don't need to do that. Because THEY don't want to change. take control of your own life.
CDs are great they can motivate you, they can train you. But being at the function is so much better like being at a sporting event or 3D movie.

dissed people looking at their kids in 2d pics while sitting corporate america
touting personal mentorship, and their level system
Simple ruby with 17,000 PV through 9-10 legs should make $100,000.

Nice car, sunroof, luxury - showed up later in cycle for speaker. Started as just replace mom's income to be with kid.
Have your own jet
Ruby making 6 figures knows he can leave at any time

[real hype]

Quit is not in our vocabulary
Arnold was right to skip his dad's funeral to go to the Mr. Olympia contest
Bill Gates didn't take vacations for years - good thing

Religion shows up. God plans for your greatness, but you must have Dream, Determination, Discipline
Can do something that lives past you - the business. Cites Rockefeller.
Life filled, without regrets

Become an LTD diamond.

Reverts to sports cars, pools, resorts, leaving your job.

 

[Joecool]

This sums it up quite well:

NSFW - Source (for language):

http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/2011/07/emerald-teaches-us-how-to-go-out-there.html

Back to the ************ about teaching IBO’s to go out there and get customers. Like everything else to do with Amway its nothing but hot air. They never discussed anything about how to go out there and get customers other than a vague description of the people the IBO’s should be targeting - single mothers and people in debt. No helpful advice on how to convince these people who can least afford it to spend money chasing Amway dreams of riches.


Normally when someone teaches you to do something there are step by step instructions. Its like learning to drive a car. You don’t just go out and get a car, get in, and start driving without instructions. Well I guess you could but the results would likely be disastrous.

Edited by Locknar: 

<SNIP> Edited, breach of rule 4.

Offer a product that people want, don’t rip them off, and the customers will come. You don’t have to go out and hunt them down. That’s the difference between a legitimate business and a scam.

 

[Joecool]

Why join Amway or do any MLM?

Here's proof that the lottery works!

http://lottostories.com/

 

[icerat]

Definitely cult-like. All designed to isolate you inside the business.

Haven't listened to the whole thing, but nothing you listed seems to fit this conclusion?

 

[Joecool]

Definitely cult-like. All designed to isolate you inside the business.

Cult like aspects:

You're driven to recruit everyone you know. Before you know it, your family and friends avoid you like the plague.

You're encouraged to develop an unreasonable, irrational zeal for the products. Even so far as to justify the quality of toilet paper or to call the products prestigious.

A whole bunch of demands, promises, subtle threats of failure if you don't try
hard enough are made in the promotional material and motivational seminars

Because the system is touted as the way you're going to make yourself fantastically rich, you're under pressure to drop any conflicting or competing interests such as your bowling league or golf club. Nothing else in life has importance except for the quest of financial freedom.

Your upline soon becomes your most trusted friend. Your thoughts and feelings are shaped in part by the cds, meetings and functions.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Haven't listened to the whole thing, but nothing you listed seems to fit this conclusion?

That's because YOU DON'T GET IT.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'm reading through the blog posted above and I ran across this post:

http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/2010/10/acting-on-complaints.html

So basically Icerat is the ONLY guy on the entire internet arguing from a pro-amway stance. Not only that he's unbelievable prolific.

The sad part is that many people have wondered over the years if he is a paid shill. I think it's possible but I doubt it as the true believer is an even better person to have around than a paid shill.

Then again he does keep alluding to the idea that he has special access to the N21 people, so maybe he works for them.

Either way the whole thing stinks.

 

[NewtonTrino]

BTW For anyone arguing with Icerat, he basically has this same conversation going on every single amway related blog and any forum where amway is discussed. He's basically a professional pro amway internet arguer who runs his own amway blog and posts pro amway disinformation everywhere he can on the net. It's actually pretty ridiculous how hardcore he pimps amway.

 

[icerat]

I'm reading through the blog posted above and I ran across this post:

http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/2010/10/acting-on-complaints.html

So basically Icerat is the ONLY guy on the entire internet arguing from a pro-amway stance. Not only that he's unbelievable prolific.

The sad part is that many people have wondered over the years if he is a paid shill. I think it's possible but I doubt it as the true believer is an even better person to have around than a paid shill.

Then again he does keep alluding to the idea that he has special access to the N21 people, so maybe he works for them.

Either way the whole thing stinks.

Oh yeah. unbelievable prolific. occasional post some comments. Written 21 blog posts in the last year (not all praising Amway)

Your mate Joecool has done over 200 blog posts the first six months of this year alone - and 21 just this month. Not to mention stalking me on this forum and posting links to false and defamatory information.

And I'm some "true believer" who might be a "paid shill" and "something stinks"?

And I'm not the only defender. Most are just smarter than me and don't waste time getting into arguments with zealots like you and joecool.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Oh yeah. unbelievable prolific. occasional post some comments. Written 21 blog posts in the last year (not all praising Amway)

Your mate Joecool has done over 200 blog posts the first six months of this year alone - and 21 just this month. Not to mention stalking me on this forum and posting links to false and defamatory information.

And I'm some "true believer" who might be a "paid shill" and "something stinks"?

And I'm not the only defender. Most are just smarter than me and don't waste time getting into arguments with zealots like you and joecool.

Every time I look at a site that has anything anti-amway on it I see posts by you. You don't think that's a little crazy?

And you know as well as I do that plenty of people have thought you were a paid shill at one time or another due to the amount of time you've spent defending amway and N21 in particular.

Personally I do not believe you are paid. I think you've just been convinced, probably by listening to too many "tools", that amway is the greatest thing ever and must be defended from all attackers. Basically like any other cultist..

 

[icerat]

Every time I look at a site that has anything anti-amway on it I see posts by you. You don't think that's a little crazy?

Why? Ever heard of google alerts? Takes no time at all, particularly if you're a speed reader and saying the same stuff because the critbots repeat the same BS.

How many anti-amway sites do you look at exactly?

And how many posts are there by the likes of JoeCool?

More than 200 blog posts just this year alone, plus all the commenting ....

and you're worried about me?

Good grief.

And you know as well as I do that plenty of people have thought you were a paid shill at one time or another due to the amount of time you've spent defending amway and N21 in particular.

So you believe the likes of JoeCool, David Brear, Robert FitzPatrick, and Jon Taylor might be paid shills, since they all spend A LOT more time attacking the industry than I do supporting it.

Personally I do not believe you are paid. I think you've just been convinced, probably by listening to too many "tools", that amway is the greatest thing ever and must be defended from all attackers. Basically like any other cultist..

And how should your behaviour be interpreted? Like constantly misrepresenting my position? I not only (a) don't think it's the greatest thing ever (that would be SodaStream) and (b) criticise it quite often.

How should people interpret the apparent irresistible need of people like yourself, Joecool, Mr Million, Brear etc et to outright lie about things?

Personally I just think you're a passionate anti-amway zealot who has brainwashed himself through confirmation bias and a touch of narcissism.

Edited for civility.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[NewtonTrino]

Personally I just think you're a passionate anti-amway zealot who has brainwashed himself through confirmation bias and a touch of narcissism.

I'm a passionate anti-amway zealot because I've seen the damage it's done to literally thousands of people that I've personally seen over the last 30+ years that I've been exposed to amway.

I don't know where you get the confirmation bias thing from. Keep in mind I literally grew up in the business. I didn't figure out it was a scam until I had already been exposed to it for many years as it's not super obvious when you're caught up in it. If anything I should have confirmation bias in the direction of supporting amway. Like I said before I can pick up the phone right now and call high level active distributors who know damn well what they're doing. Again, you keep trying to paint me as an outsider. I'm in a position, quite frankly, to know a lot more about amway than you are. Unless of course you are something other than the true believer low level distributor that you claim.

So if you want to claim that the kingpins aren't running a scam then please bring some clarify in the form of tax return data for a statistically significant sample of diamond and higher level distributors. Then we'll get to the bottom of where they make their money.

Of course in the old days many of them insisted on CASH for tools. I wonder why that was.... Oh, no I don't, it's so they could avoid the taxes.