Missile??

Can't speak for the others, but I followed your lead, used your assumptions, or those that you recommended me (jadeehess' calcs, for example). Your problem, really.


A second out for the plane, which travelled at 243m/s, would have been 243m out. Agreed?


Thanks for providing the links that debunks you. You see...

The steel plates that the perimeter columns were made of were up to 76mm thick.
Also
"Starstreak is a British short range surface-to-air missile"
"Effective range 300m–7000 m (0.19–4.3 mi)"
"The operator tracks the target using the aiming unit's optically stabilized sight. The process of tracking the target allows the aiming unit to compute the right trajectory to bring the missile together with the target. The operator can indicate wind direction to the unit, and in the case of a long range target provide super elevation. When the initial tracking is complete, the operator fires the missile by pressing a button.[1]
The missile then fires the first stage rocket motor, which launches the missile from the tube — but burns out before leaving the tube to protect the operator. When the missile is a safe distance from the operator the second stage fires, which rapidly accelerates the missile to burn out velocity of about Mach 3.5 four hundred meters away from the operator."
"On impact with the target a delayed action fuze is triggered"

The Starstreak does not fit your assumptions at all! And no, it is not designed to penetrate structural members of large buildings, it is designed to damage planes inflight, and penetrate into lightly armoured road vehicles.


To the contrary - I am not at all interested in the flash. I know with absolute certainty that there is no missile in that video, and that your missile theory is utter stupidity. With or without flash.


It is not only far less significant, it as absolutely insignificant. When the maximum value one variable is smaller by 3 orders of magnitude than the minimum margin of error of our problem, its significance is not 0.004%, it becomes precisely 0!


I told you twice already:

With the missile adding 0.004% to the kinetic energy we already have, your plane will at BEST penetrate 0.1 inch further.

Please do not ignore this a third time! Please repeat in a full sentence, in your own words, the content of this paragraph (the one with the very large font size) above so we know that you have read that your theory describes something totally insignificant!

The steel of the WTC was made of lower strength steel. http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/structural-data-wtc-1-2 I would assume the APC is made of higher strength steel. This is one of the reasons why I say any type of penetration models whether it be for a plane or missile is very difficult there are so many variables.

Besides that let's see what else it says. "Each sub-munition dart travelling at 1,250 meters per second (2,800 mph) has comparable kinetic energy to a shell from a Bofors 40 mm gun"

Now what can the Bofors gun do? "In U.S. Army service, the single mount Bofors was known as the 40 mm Automatic Gun M1. The U.S. version of the gun fired three variants of the British Mk. II high-explosive shell as well as the M81A1 armor-piercing round, which was capable of penetrating some 50 mm of homogeneous armor plate at a range of 500 yards." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun

Don't tell me it can't penetrate a box column.

I have no idea why you hilite the meters. It goes to 400 meters a safe distance from the operator and than phase two accelerates to Mach 3.5 very quickly. Not sure why you feel the need to hilite this.

In regards to your big text, yes I understand what you are writing. But I've said many time all that kinetic energy is not even close to being applied to one column. The further in the plane can penetrate before encountering resistance the less shredding and fall back that would occur.
 
Oystein you said this:

'' The steel plates that the perimeter columns were made of were up to 76mm thickv''

How thick was this steel plate at the 78th floor ?
 
Last edited:
Oystein you said this:

'' The steel plates that the perimeter columns were made of were up to 76mm thickv''

How thick was this steel plate at the 78th floor ?

Ask tmd. He needs to present arguments in favour of his theory.
Feel free to help him.
 
This piece of UA 175 debris was found on top of WTC 5
[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/1090455639_28b5765151_ocopy.jpg[/qimg]


On it you can see a portion of the aircrafts registration number.
[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/1.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/2.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/3.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/4.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/dsc00478kcopycopy.jpg[/qimg]

close up of US flag
[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/Screenshot2011-05-22at94845PM.jpg[/qimg]

N612UA cn12873/41. Please take five minutes and see if you can match the two.
[qimg]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/waypastvne/6.jpg[/qimg]


Ok really you can only make out the N for sure in less I'm missing something. If you go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_by_tail_number#United_States_2 you can see there's more than a few that begin with N. Note that letters can also be used in the second place. Also these are A/C that were in accidents only. So that really doesn't identify it as anything. Also even if there is evidence of the whole number, this would be the easiest and maybe the only type of identification that could be faked. I'm talking about A/C part serial numbers. I'm not saying whether I believe those planes hit or not, I'm saying that the parts that were found could have easily been traced to their serial. This is something that should have happened, but evidently did not.
 
It's been shot down about 745 posts ago. It's dead as can be.
Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e
rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the
bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
 
Can't speak for the others, but I followed your lead, used your assumptions, or those that you recommended me (jadeehess' calcs, for example). Your problem, really.


A second out for the plane, which travelled at 243m/s, would have been 243m out. Agreed?


Thanks for providing the links that debunks you. You see...

The steel plates that the perimeter columns were made of were up to 76mm thick.
Also
"Starstreak is a British short range surface-to-air missile"
"Effective range 300m–7000 m (0.19–4.3 mi)"
"The operator tracks the target using the aiming unit's optically stabilized sight. The process of tracking the target allows the aiming unit to compute the right trajectory to bring the missile together with the target. The operator can indicate wind direction to the unit, and in the case of a long range target provide super elevation. When the initial tracking is complete, the operator fires the missile by pressing a button.[1]
The missile then fires the first stage rocket motor, which launches the missile from the tube — but burns out before leaving the tube to protect the operator. When the missile is a safe distance from the operator the second stage fires, which rapidly accelerates the missile to burn out velocity of about Mach 3.5 four hundred meters away from the operator."
"On impact with the target a delayed action fuze is triggered"

The Starstreak does not fit your assumptions at all! And no, it is not designed to penetrate structural members of large buildings, it is designed to damage planes inflight, and penetrate into lightly armoured road vehicles.


To the contrary - I am not at all interested in the flash. I know with absolute certainty that there is no missile in that video, and that your missile theory is utter stupidity. With or without flash.


It is not only far less significant, it as absolutely insignificant. When the maximum value one variable is smaller by 3 orders of magnitude than the minimum margin of error of our problem, its significance is not 0.004%, it becomes precisely 0!


I told you twice already:

With the missile adding 0.004% to the kinetic energy we already have, your plane will at BEST penetrate 0.1 inch further.

Please do not ignore this a third time! Please repeat in a full sentence, in your own words, the content of this paragraph (the one with the very large font size) above so we know that you have read that your theory describes something totally insignificant!

Ok first I use the FEMA report as a reference. http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_apndxB.htm#B.2

". Column plate thickness varied from 1/4 inch to 5/8 inch in the impact zone of WTC 1 for floors 89-101, and from 1/4 inch to 13/16 inch in the impact zone of WTC 2 for floors 77-87." 1/4 inch is about 6.35 mm 13/16 inch is about 20.6 mm. There can be absolutely no doubt given the information I presented previously that a starstreak type missile could penetrate and damage the columns at the impact level.

This serves as evidence of the deceptive tactics debunkers will use. 6 - 20 mm is a far cry from 76mm.
 
The steel of the WTC was made of lower strength steel. http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/structural-data-wtc-1-2 I would assume the APC is made of higher strength steel.
Can you explain what the word "strength" means when applied to structural steel, and how this "strength" affects resistance to penetration by high-speed projectiles?
Can you explain what this "lower" strength steel actually is compared to? Was the WTC built of weak steel, you think?

This is one of the reasons why I say any type of penetration models whether it be for a plane or missile is very difficult there are so many variables.
And yet, a team by Purdue university as well as the NIST guys did exactly that. I don't recall you ever commented on that.
I think this perceived difficulty is a difficulty only for you and your theory. You are, in effect, telling us that you don't know, and can't know (for lack of personal skills), whether even a tiny aspect of your theory hold water.

Besides that let's see what else it says. "Each sub-munition dart travelling at 1,250 meters per second (2,800 mph) has comparable kinetic energy to a shell from a Bofors 40 mm gun"
But remember:
  • In your theory, the missile was launched one second before plane impact, or about 243meters away from the building face
  • The Starstreak reaches its intended velocity of 3.5 mach only 400 meters away from the "operator", who is though to sit right above the location from whence the missile was launched
  • These two facts together tell you that the missile could not have reached the speed you mention there

Now what can the Bofors gun do? "In U.S. Army service, the single mount Bofors was known as the 40 mm Automatic Gun M1. The U.S. version of the gun fired three variants of the British Mk. II high-explosive shell as well as the M81A1 armor-piercing round, which was capable of penetrating some 50 mm of homogeneous armor plate at a range of 500 yards." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun
And so can any small part of a plane that races at 243m/s.
Let's see.
"The new 40 mm design used a larger 40 × 364R round firing a slightly lighter 870g shell at a much higher 1,030 m/s (3,379fps) muzzle velocity."
Such a projectile had a kinetic energy of 0.5 * 0.87kg * (1030m/s)2 = 461,491.5J.
The 767 had a KE of 3,424,251,510. That is more than 7,400 times the KE of that of the strongest Bofors 40mm rounds at muzzle. In other words, the Bofors would add 0.01% destructive energy to the plane.
Again, that is 3 orders of magnitude too little to even be significant.

If you want to add 461,491.5J of energy to your plane to penetrate further, you have smarter options:
- Increase velocity of plane imperceptably, from 243.00m/s to 243.02m/s (0.0067%)
- Increase mass of plane by 15.63kg (0.013%), for example by putting another suitcase on board, or 4 gallons more fuel.

Don't tell me it can't penetrate a box column.
Show me it can!
(Of course, even if it can, that is 3 orders of magnitude away from being significant, considering the fact that you, tmd, can't control the KE of the plane to within 10% accuracy)

I have no idea why you hilite the meters. It goes to 400 meters a safe distance from the operator and than phase two accelerates to Mach 3.5 very quickly. Not sure why you feel the need to hilite this.
Because you say that the missile is launched a much smaller distance away from the building, namely 243m. By the time the missile would reach the facade, the plane, too, will be much closer.

In regards to your big text, yes I understand what you are writing.
I don't believe you. You have such great trouble understanding pretty much anything we write to you, I don't trust you understand this.
That's why I asked you to repeat it in your own, different, words, so I can check if you really understand what it means.

But I've said many time all that kinetic energy is not even close to being applied to one column. The further in the plane can penetrate before encountering resistance the less shredding and fall back that would occur.
There we have it: This is proof positive that you don't understand at all what my big size text meant.
 
Ok first I use the FEMA report as a reference. http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_apndxB.htm#B.2

". Column plate thickness varied from 1/4 inch to 5/8 inch in the impact zone of WTC 1 for floors 89-101, and from 1/4 inch to 13/16 inch in the impact zone of WTC 2 for floors 77-87." 1/4 inch is about 6.35 mm 13/16 inch is about 20.6 mm. There can be absolutely no doubt given the information I presented previously that a starstreak type missile could penetrate and damage the columns at the impact level.

This serves as evidence of the deceptive tactics debunkers will use. 6 - 20 mm is a far cry from 76mm.

OK. Cool.

You have absolutely no doubt given the information you presented previously that a starstreak type missile could penetrate and damage the columns at the impact level then? Great.

Now on to the next question:
Given that the Starstreak missile (warhead weight 0.9kg, max speed 1250m/s) has a KE of 703,125J, do you doubt that any portion of the plane with a mass of 23.81kg, travelling at 243m/s (speed of plane), and having also a KE of 703,125J, could equally penetrate and damage the columns at impact level?

Now the plane really had a mass of 115,980kg. Lets's suppose that only 30% of that mass, or 34794kg, directly hit structural steel on the facade; then we have 1461 portions of plane with the same capacity as the Startreak. That means the Starstreak, even ignoring the fact that it already has 243m/s before launch, adds only 0.07% of column breaking capacity at impact level!

It is still totally insignificant!
 
Last edited:
ok really you can only make out the n for sure in les i'm missing something. if you go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_aircraft_by_tail_number#united_states_2 you can see there's more than a few that begin with n. Note that letters can also be used in the second place. Also these are a/c that were in accidents only. So that really doesn't identify it as anything. Also even if there is evidence of the whole number, this would be the easiest and maybe the only type of identification that could be faked. I'm talking about a/c part serial numbers. I'm not saying whether i believe those planes hit or not, i'm saying that the parts that were found could have easily been traced to their serial. This is something that should have happened, but evidently did not.


ftfy
 
I'll be straight forward, the missile theory in any form is the same as no plane positions. Insane, stupid, and completely not worth speculation.
 
OK. Cool.

You have absolutely no doubt given the information you presented previously that a starstreak type missile could penetrate and damage the columns at the impact level then? Great.

Now on to the next question:
Given that the Starstreak missile (warhead weight 0.9kg, max speed 1250m/s) has a KE of 703,125J, do you doubt that any portion of the plane with a mass of 23.81kg, travelling at 243m/s (speed of plane), and having also a KE of 703,125J, could equally penetrate and damage the columns at impact level?

Now the plane really had a mass of 115,980kg. Lets's suppose that only 30% of that mass, or 34794kg, directly hit structural steel on the facade; then we have 1461 portions of plane with the same capacity as the Startreak. That means the Starstreak, even ignoring the fact that it already has 243m/s before launch, adds only 0.07% of column breaking capacity at impact level!

It is still totally insignificant!


I'm not sure there is a reason to address much of anything you say anymore. Your deceptive tactics have been exposed. If you bothered to look up a correct value of 76 mm thick for the lower columns, you would have known it doesn't apply to all columns. Everything I found clearly states that the thickness decreases as it went up. Why should I continue to discuss things with someone that is obviously deceptive?
 
Last edited:
.
That was brought up last night on Nat Geo.
The real airplanes were landed at a secret airfield in Pennsylvania.. YGBSM!.. all the passengers and crew loaded onto UAL 175, which was then shot down over Shanksville.
The places of the real airplanes were assumed by others of the same type, painted the same, and then crashed into the towers, with one guiding the cruise missile into the Pentagon... and then flying off to that secret airfield?

You know, I saw that too. And that's the first I've heard of that theory. Sounds plausible.

:pigsfly
 
Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e
rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the
bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

This is a late parrot!

Thanks, I needed that! :D
 

Back
Top Bottom