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Miss-Interpreting Quantum Collapse.

It wouldn't disprove anything. The whole point of the many worlds interpretation is that the collapse is the point where different universes diverge. From our point of view it looks exactly the same as simply seeing a superposition collapse to one value. Proving the collapse is real would say nothing about which interpretation of tha collapse is correct.

I think we're talking past each other.

Suppose that we found an experiment that unambiguously proved that at some point the description of quantum mechanics breaks down and the system cannot be modelled after that point by quantum mechanics. In other words we have a demonstration that collapse is objectively real, and not just subjectively real to us. (This would undoubtably involve new physics that is incompatible with existing quantum mechanics. Yes, I am talking about a pretty big hypothetical, but bear with me here.)

Then that experiment would conclusively disprove the Everett Interpretation. It would probably disprove a host of other interpretations as well, but Everett is a guaranteed casualty. (Which is what I was trying to say in my original reply to you.)

I think to go any further will simply get into pointless philosophical discussions about what is "real". I see it from the point of view that collapse is seen to happen, therefore it is real, in the same way that I see wavicles as real things that can act as either particles or waves, rather than either particles or waves being real. Different people view different things as real and disagree over which bits are just convenience to make it look nicer. All the maths is the same and the answers are the same, so all these arguments are purely semantic. At the moment we simply have no way to tell what is actually the "real" answer.

I've been in enough of these discussions to mostly agree with you.

But the caveat is significant. And the caveat is that I was discussing a hypothetical where some experiment demonstrated that there really is a collapse of the wave function, contrary to what existing theories of quantum mechanics say.

Oh, and there is a minor caveat as well. The math is not always the same. Specifically consider the following experiment (which I read about many years ago in a John Baez post on sci.physics). Based on whether or not a Geiger counter is observed to click in a specific time frame, a heavy mass is or is not placed beside a gravity measuring device. Gravity is measured. It turns out that we only measure that gravity if the mass was actually placed there.

theories of quantum gravity.Under any interpretation other than Everett, we've demonstrated nothing. Under the Everett interpretation, we've just placed a constraint on possible (If we could conduct the experiment with enough sensitivity to detect some of the general relativistic corrections to Newton's theory of gravity, then we'd have placed a far stronger constraint on theories of quantum gravity. Conversely, there is an outside chance that we'd prove the Everett interpretation.)

That's exactly what I said.

We agree that your description was wrong. We differ about how significant the incorrect parts of the description were..

Cheers,
Ben
 
shansens,

Welcome!
And I'm honoured you made your first post in my thread (well, a thread started by me, the ownership has been well and truely passed over :D ).
However.....

"The Secret" video claims that people can influence the universe in very tangible ways merely by feeling the right feelings, and tries to back it up with vague claims that "quantum physics" allows this sort of thing to occur. Ms. Hansen Smythe's point, I think, is that one cannot reasonably use quantum physics to back up these claims.
Yes, but my point was that the reason she gave was incorrect.
If you disagree, can you explain why?

What's interesting is that this forum demonstrates how easy it is to make bogus claims about quantum physics. Just trying to talk about it instantly causes an argument, so those who make outrageous claims for quantum effects get a free ride between the doubts of laymen and the difficulty for experts of describing phenomena which have no macro-world analogues.
So what do you suggest we do? Do we pretend there is no disagreement just because the author is knocking a bogus claim? Or do we try for a better understanding?

Quibbles about whether or not the author hit the quantum nail squarely on the head or not are irrelevant to the more central idea of her article, which is that "The Secret" is a literally incredible collection of alarmingly immoral nonsense.
But my point is that she hit her thumb.
But, hey, she is knocking that shocking movie so perhaps I should let it pass. On the other hand she could be correct and I would be passing up an opportunity to be better informed.
What do you think?
 
I don't expect to find accurate information on Quantum Theory and its interpretations on a Skeptics board any more than a Woo-Woo Board.
But behold:

Schneibster!
 
The idea is indeed very, very close to decoherence, but decoherence varies from that idea because it does not assert that indeterminate parameters have values but those values are unmeasurable.

And where did she assert that ?
 
Linda,

The affect of the observer is entirely separate to any affect from interacting particles. The author of that article clearly states, in my opinion, that the observer has no effect over and above the affect of the interacting particles. She is denying or running rough-shod over the most central "mystery" of quantum physics. That is why she is wrong.

I was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to explain this but I will have a go if you like - unless you already agree with me on the first point but disagree on the second point.

This is what she says though:

The answer is far more mundane. To put it in crudely simplistic terms, as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way. It is the photons that are responsible for messing up the results, not the thoughts of the experimenter.

Well, perhaps it's not the thoughts of the observer, but neither is it just the photons. The observer does play a role however. Do you disagree.
 
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Linda,

The affect of the observer is entirely separate to any affect from interacting particles. The author of that article clearly states, in my opinion, that the observer has no effect over and above the affect of the interacting particles. She is denying or running rough-shod over the most central "mystery" of quantum physics. That is why she is wrong.

What effect does the observer have that is different from the idea of measurement?

I was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to explain this but I will have a go if you like - unless you already agree with me on the first point but disagree on the second point.

What I need is for you to be specific about what you are thinking of, I think.

Well, perhaps it's not the thoughts of the observer, but neither is it just the photons. The observer does play a role however. Do you disagree.

I think I do, but people have incredibly varied opinions about what is meant by "observer" and what is meant by "turn on the light", so I don't know if we are merely describing the same thing in different ways.

Linda
 
It seems rather late in this thread to be making this point, but I don't think it's been made explicit thus far...

The OP cites an example where someone has got into the classic muddle between the simple idea that observation disturbs that which is being observed, which is trivial and does not really related to QM, and the uncertainty that is embodied in the Heisenberg relations which means that a combination certain pairs of parameters cannot be measured beyond a certain level of precision even in principle and also that the closer one confines one member of that pair to a certain value the less well-defined is the other. The latter is QM uncertainty (as I understand it and can briefly express it) the former is just an issue of experimental design (though I suppose it meets QM uncertainty in the limit).
 
The affect of the observer is entirely separate to any affect from interacting particles.

This is an assertion without evidence. Quantum mechanics does not distinguish "observers" from any other kind of interaction.

The author of that article clearly states, in my opinion, that the observer has no effect over and above the affect of the interacting particles.

Yes. And there's no actual reason to assume otherwise.

She is denying or running rough-shod over the most central "mystery" of quantum physics. That is why she is wrong.

Good for her. We can do with a little less talk about the "mystery" of quantum mechanics. Especially when the "mystery" only ever happens at stages where we can't keep doing the calculations for purely practical reasons. "Collapse" is like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz: we can only believe it happens in cases where we can't watch it happen.

Well, perhaps it's not the thoughts of the observer, but neither is it just the photons. The observer does play a role however. Do you disagree.

I disagree. Collapse of the wave function (meaning a discontinuous change in the quantum state of the system, rather than a continuous time evolution of the system according to the Schrodinger equation) is simply not necessary to explain any experimental results.
 
I'm sorry to be difficult, but just because I'm willing to talk about quantum mechanics doesn't mean I'm willing to teach you either to read, or to comprehend what you read.

Good luck.

I don't get the impression that the author is particularly knowledgeable about QM. It is my impression that she was trying to make a relatively simple point, rather than the somewhat more complicated point that you are alluding to. I suspect that because you are more knowledgeable, you see something in her particular choice of words that refers to a specific phenomenon or observation. And it has piqued my curiosity as to why you seem to be sure of this.

I guess what I'm saying is that simplifications almost necessarily are wrong when considered in the light of detailed knowledge/explanations. Most of the time I'm willing to let it ride if it conveys the gist of the idea (otherwise it's almost impossible to explain things to others and I guess that's a whole 'nother thread). I was interested in clarifying the reasons for the objections to her post (in order to test my own understanding). But it is not worth belabouring (it already seems pretty clear to me, just not confirmed) if it tries your patience. :)

Linda
 
I'm sorry to be difficult, but just because I'm willing to talk about quantum mechanics doesn't mean I'm willing to teach you either to read, or to comprehend what you read.

Good luck.

Or in other words you can't justify your assumptions. And intead of having the intellectual honesty to simply admit or even consider you might be mistaken in those assumptions, you resort to ad-hominem. Something I've noticed you seem to do lot recently...

:rolleyes:
 
Or in other words you can't justify your assumptions. And intead of having the intellectual honesty to simply admit or even consider you might be mistaken in those assumptions, you resort to ad-hominem. Something I've noticed you seem to do lot recently...

:rolleyes:
Fine, then I'll prove you're a fool instead of just implying it.

Do me a favor though; try to avoid looking like even more of one when I'm done by making more accusations of ad hominem attacks.

"To put it in crudely simplistic terms, as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way. It is the photons that are responsible for messing up the results, not the thoughts of the experimenter."

This statement is factually incorrect. It is not the means of measurement that make it impossible to determine the values of conjugate variables. They are inherently indeterminate; this is a basic characteristic of quanta, the nature of reality in the quantum realm, not an effect of measurement. Period.
 
I don't get the impression that the author is particularly knowledgeable about QM. It is my impression that she was trying to make a relatively simple point, rather than the somewhat more complicated point that you are alluding to. I suspect that because you are more knowledgeable, you see something in her particular choice of words that refers to a specific phenomenon or observation. And it has piqued my curiosity as to why you seem to be sure of this.
Because it is a common misconception. Quantum uncertainty is not the result of the means of measurement interfering with other potential measurements; it is a basic characteristic of reality in the quantum realm, the realm of the very, very small. Quanta are not like the objects we encounter in the ordinary everyday world, and this is one of the ways in which they are not. It's difficult to imagine, but easy to understand, and easy to find out as well. There are a wealth of good sources that can make this information available to anyone who bothers to go find it out, and if one is going to write about it, one probably ought to go to the trouble.

I guess what I'm saying is that simplifications almost necessarily are wrong when considered in the light of detailed knowledge/explanations. Most of the time I'm willing to let it ride if it conveys the gist of the idea (otherwise it's almost impossible to explain things to others and I guess that's a whole 'nother thread).
I agree that this is true in some circumstances, but I do not agree that it is in this one. Quanta are simple beasties; they don't have very many characteristics, and this is in fact one of their characteristics. Understanding the character of those features can be difficult since they are so unlike those of the objects that we interact with every day; but they are simple enough that we should be able to hold them in our minds even if we cannot fully understand them.

I was interested in clarifying the reasons for the objections to her post (in order to test my own understanding). But it is not worth belabouring (it already seems pretty clear to me, just not confirmed) if it tries your patience. :)

Linda
No, you were polite and did not try my patience, whatever others may have done. I have answered as best I can; please don't hesitate to ask further if my answers are not clear.
 
It seems rather late in this thread to be making this point, but I don't think it's been made explicit thus far...
I thought I did, but I'm unwilling to dispute you.

The OP cites an example where someone has got into the classic muddle between the simple idea that observation disturbs that which is being observed, which is trivial and does not really related to QM, and the uncertainty that is embodied in the Heisenberg relations which means that a combination certain pairs of parameters cannot be measured beyond a certain level of precision even in principle and also that the closer one confines one member of that pair to a certain value the less well-defined is the other. The latter is QM uncertainty (as I understand it and can briefly express it) the former is just an issue of experimental design (though I suppose it meets QM uncertainty in the limit).
Imprecisely stated, but factually correct. If you're not at least a very interested amateur, this is probably more than sufficient.
 
Before I can talk about interpretations, I've realized I have to address the whole "wave/particle" thing. So I'll see if I can do both in a single post, but I frankly expect to have to do this in one and then talk about interpretations in another.

In our everyday world, we encounter particles all the time; and we encounter waves all the time, too. Normally these are quite distinct types of phenomena from one another. But this is not inherent in the phenomena; it is an effect created by the large number (astronomical, actually) of quanta that make up even the smallest everyday object around us. When you start talking about "particles" that are sufficiently small, they become more "wavy;" and when you talk about quanta, the smallest particles of all, you can't really tell whether they are particles or waves. They exhibit characteristics that are both.

From our point of view, this is paradoxical; how can something be both a particle and a wave? But it turns out that this is the only explanation we have been able to devise that makes sense, and gives the right answers. Remember, science always goes back to the real world; and when you take the answers you get from doing things this way back, they agree with reality with stunning, in fact unprecedented, accuracy and precision. The theory of quantum electrodynamics is the most accurate and precise theory in the history of the world; it predicts the behavior of electrically charged particles with respect to the electromagnetic force to seventeen decimal places, the last time I looked. No other theory of science can even approach this level of accuracy or precision.

But what does this mean? It means that quanta are not particles, nor are they waves, as we generally conceive of particles and waves to be. They are quanta, and they take part in characteristics of both particles and waves, but are neither. And this leads directly to another inherent characteristic of quanta: uncertainty. For a point-like particle, position is a very clear concept; it's right there. But for a wave, it's not so clear; where precisely is a wave? Well, it's over here, and it's over there, and it's all between. So uncertainty is one of the wave-like aspects of quanta. You can't really precisely localize them. In truth, this is just an analogy; there isn't anything you can really say quanta are like. You can only classify their characteristics, at least to the extent that uncertainty lets you do so. But this is close enough for a reasonable understanding.

Well, it looks like I got past that relatively quickly. Let's move right on into interpretations of quantum mechanics.

The first thing to understand is that every interpretation of quantum mechanics must agree with the experimental results, and therefore must substantially agree with actual quantum mechanics as it exists. NONE of these interpretations has any direct effect on the reality we observe, or on the results we predict, at least not so far. No one has devised any experiment that can show a measurable difference between any of these interpretations; they are all on equal footing in that regard. Furthermore, these interpretations are therefore not even hypotheses; we do not foresee the ability to test any of them, so they are and will remain for the foreseeable future nothing but conjectures. None of this is fact, or theory, or law, or even hypothesis. Each is an attempt to explain a highly abstruse mathematical theory in natural language, nothing more.

Before we launch into this, we need to understand where "wave function collapse" comes from.

When a quantum is propagating along ("propagating" is a fancy word for "moving," but since it's kind of hard to think of something that you can't really quite localize "moving," physicists use "propagating" instead), we know how to quantify the various things it might do in the future; we have probabilities for various states its characteristics might have it in when it encounters some situation. A physicist named Erwin Shroedinger made an equation that we still use to describe these probabilities; it is called the "Shroedinger wave equation," wave because it looks very much like the equations of water and sound waves, to such an extent that you wouldn't really think of what it describes as anything but a wave. This is one of those things that when we use it to describe reality, the results agree impressively with what we see.

Now, when the quantum interacts with some other quantum, there will be various probabilities of various outcomes; it might be absorbed, or it might bounce off, or whatnot. After that point, we no longer describe it with the old wave function; we no longer describe probabilities. Something has happened. An outcome has been selected, and now the probabilities are meaningless. We have not probabilities, but an outcome, whose probability is one. This is the "collapse of the wave function."

Because of this feature of the wave function, the first interpretation of quantum mechanics incorporated it as a feature. This interpretation is called the "Copenhagen interpretation," because it was advocated by Niels Bohr, a Danish physicist from, of course, Copenhagen. As Bohr went along, he became more and more convinced that we could never know what was really happening, but the so-called "strict Copenhagen interpretation" asserts to this day that the wave function collapse is a real phenomenon.

Later formulations of the Copenhagen interpretation, including the most popular today, assert that the wave function does not have real existence, nor does its collapse. These are epiphenomena interjected by our mathematical representation of quanta, not real phenomena in which the quanta participate.

The current "most accepted" approaches all use a concept called "decoherence." Decoherence conjectures that when quanta interact with their environment in a thermodynamically irreversible manner, they imitate "wave function collapse." The "collapse" is therefore "spread out" and dissipated into the environment where its effects become simple causal outcomes.

The "Many Worlds" or Everett interpretation asserts that every quantum event comes out all the different ways; we see only one in our universe, but in nearby universes, each of the alternatives happens. This helps resolve the question of "how does the quantum decide what to do;" in this interpretation, the quantum does everything possible, but in separate realities. Far from being as speculative as it sounds, this is considered a mainstream interpretation of quantum mechanics, of equal stature with decoherent Copenhagen and others I will mention.

Another interpretation is called "Consistent histories," or "decoherent histories." In this interpretation, it is asserted that descriptions of quanta are meaningless when those descriptions violate uncertainty. In other words, to describe the probability of a single parameter as being, for example, spin in X of +1/2 or -1/2, each with a probability of 0.5, has meaning, but to describe the spin of that same particle in, for example, Z, is inconsistent and therefore meaningless. By "meaningless" I mean that they have no connection to reality; given the spin in X is known, the spin in Z literally has no existence. Only descriptions that are consistent with quantum mechanics have meaning, whether they would be meaningful if applied to macroscopic, classical, phenomena or not. It is the interpretation I most favor, although there are others that are also interesting.

David Bohm came up with an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts that there is an independent, non-measurable set of what are called hidden variables that cannot be measured, that determine apparently random quantum behavior. In other words, the behavior of quanta is not random, but fully deterministic; we merely cannot ever even theoretically measure the values of the variables that determine this behavior. It therefore appears random to us. There are other hidden variable theories, but they suffer from a defect that Bohm's does not; a combination of factors involving the Aspect realization of the EPR experiment, and something called "Bell's Theorem" eliminate these theories (but not Bohm's) from possibility.

John Cramer has proposed an interpretation called the "Transactional Interpretation." The assertion here is that both the so-called "advanced" and "retarded" solutions to Maxwell's equations represent real phenomena. The retarded solution is our familiar picture of waves propagating forward in time; but the advanced solution proposes that waves can propagate backward in time and affect the outcome of an experiment prior to the determination of the conditions that it began with. This is very odd, but because of the EPR experiment, it is not inconsistent with reality. Dr. Cramer actually teaches classes in physics using this interpretation at the University of Washington in Seattle. It is supported by a paper written in the 1950s by John Wheeler and Richard Feynman, advocating a theory called "Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory."

A very interesting interpretation is Backward Causation. This interpretation asserts that events can have an effect on events backward in time. It is functionally equivalent to Cramer's TI, but does not propose a mechanism. It asserts that backward causation happens only in the realm where Planck's Constant is not of appreciable effect; Planck's Constant is the constant that relates the wavelength of a quantum's wave-like characteristics to its individual energy content.

There are others. What is most important to remember is that essentially, none of these interpretations says there is anything wrong with the mathematical theories of QM. Some of them claim that there is something missing, but in most if not all cases, they also claim that this "something" can never be directly measured.

And there you have it.

If we're going to discuss why we have all these different interpretations, I suggest that is another thread, and it involves the EPR experiment and Bell's Theorem and Aspect. From these experiments grows another that I consider to be one of the most revealing ever conducted: the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser. If folks would like some website references to look over the various interpretations, I have several that you will find informative. But I also suggest that you want to find out about Bell's Theorem and EPR before you go there, and properly understand the DCQM, because otherwise you'll be left with a spinning head and nothing to really hang any of these interpretations on to differentiate them.
 
As long as you're at it, I would appreciate your thoughts (and anyone else's who actually understands what's goin' on) as to what you think of the "Afshar" experiment, especially with regard to his position that he has falsified both Copenhagen and many-worlds by demonstrating that both wave function and particle states exist simultaneously and can be observed existing in this universe.
 
As long as you're at it, I would appreciate your thoughts (and anyone else's who actually understands what's goin' on) as to what you think of the "Afshar" experiment, especially with regard to his position that he has falsified both Copenhagen and many-worlds by demonstrating that both wave function and particle states exist simultaneously and can be observed existing in this universe.
I'm going to pull this out into the thread I mentioned; it's aside from the interpretations, a more substantive issue, and Aspect and EPR, and particularly the DCQE, are important to our understanding. More shortly. I'll title the thread "EPR, Aspect, Bell, and Understanding Quantum Weirdness."
 
I don't know if we are merely describing the same thing in different ways
I don't think we are.

What effect does the observer have that is different from the idea of measurement?
Perhaps, in order to avoid confusion with the meanings of the words we use, we need an example that demonstrates that it is the actual observation that causes the collapse of the wave function, and that it cannot be put down to the simple interaction of particles.

It's the double-slit experiment of course!

If you send a stream of electrons from a source towards a photographic plate with a wall containing two slits or holes between the source and the plate, an interference pattern typical of waves results. If the electrons are emitted one at a time, the same wave interference pattern results. It's as if the electron departs the source as a particle and arrives at the plate as a particle, but travels through the slits as a wave. The wave passes through both slits and forms an interference pattern on the plate.

Now, suppose we place detectors at the holes. What happens then? Well, as you know, the wave interference pattern disappears and, instead, we have a pattern that we would expect if particles were passing through the holes. The electron leaves the source as a particle, travels towards the hole as a wave, and arrives at the hole as a particle. You might say that the act of detecting/measuring the arrival of the wave at the hole collapses it to a particle. In other words, it's all caused by interacting particles.

But now, suppose we place a detector at only one of the holes. What happens now? Again a pattern typical of particles passing through the holes is obtained. But, if a million particles pass through the holes, 500,000 pass through the hole where there is no detector. There are no particles interfering with these 500,000 electrons, yet they all behave like particles instead of waves.

Therefore, the effect cannot not be just due to the interaction of particles as claimed by the author of that article, but by the observation itself. Or, at the very least, something other than just the interaction of particles. If it was just interacting particles, how would it be any different from classical physics.
 
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BillyJoe, they're not interacting particles- they're interacting quanta, which aren't particles, and aren't waves, but partake of selected properties of both.
 
BillyJoe, they're not interacting particles- they're interacting quanta, which aren't particles, and aren't waves, but partake of selected properties of both.
Yes, I was trying to link in to the article under discussion...

"...a scientist has great difficulty recording and measuring particles and their interactions without changing the results of the investigation.....as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way."

....but I should have used quotation marks.
 

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