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Mises: Commerce and Civilization

Originally posted by Malachi151
"Capitalists" don't do work, by definition. A capitalist is someoen who controls capital. They don't work, they invest and they employ. Someone who is mixing cement is not a capitalist, they are a laborer.
Fascinating, Malachi, let us see if we can support your contention here…

Let us check, uh, I dunno dictionary.com:
Capitalist
1. A supporter of capitalism.
2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
3. A person of great wealth.
Let us check Merriam-Webster online:
Capitalist
1 : a person who has capital especially invested in business; broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
2 : a person who favors capitalism
Interesting, okay, how about your dictionary.com:
Capitalist
1. A supporter of capitalism.
2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
Notice, Malachi, that to fit one of the definitions of “Capitalist” the only attribute one must exhibit is to support capitalism. Please sir, do not attempt to educate the folks on this forum.
 
no one in particular said:

Notice, Malachi, that to fit one of the definitions of “Capitalist” the only attribute one must exhibit is to support capitalism. Please sir, do not attempt to educate the folks on this forum.

We should keep a running list of terms that Malachi has re-defined to support his viewpoints. Perhaps we can start our own dictionary.

- Socialism
- "self-made millionaire"
- Capatalist

Anyone got anymore?
 
Obviously, as you should see from your own post, the word has more than one meaning.

When a Marxist says "capitalist" they are talking about:

2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
3. A person of great wealth.

Just being a supporter of an idea is nothing. In terms fo the role that they are playing in the system someone who does WORK is a laboerer, the person who finances that work is a capitalist.

A guy that draws welfare his whole life can be a supporter of capitlaism.

The word has more than one meaning, and in terms of defining an individual's relationship in an economy #2 is the meaning that is used.

At this point you guys are revealing that you don't even know how to use a dictionary, that's pretty sad.

torch ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrch)
n.

1) A portable light produced by the flame of a stick of resinous wood or of a flammable material wound about the end of a stick of wood; a flambeau.
Chiefly British. A flashlight.
2) Something that serves to illuminate, enlighten, or guide.
3) Slang. An arsonist.
4) A portable apparatus that produces a very hot flame by the combustion of gases, used in welding and construction

See how this works. The word has a totally different meaning in different context. Go back to elementary school :p
 
Silliness.

We can play "dictionary says" forever and it won't solve anything. The terms "capitalism" and "socialism" have been so grossly misused over the years to the extent that they mean practically nothing at all. If you want to say a "capitalist" is merely a "supporter of capitalism," fine. After all, the Soviet Union called itself a "democracy" and "socialist."

The Oxford English Dictionary defines capitalism thusly: One who has accumulated capital; one who has capital available for employment in financial or industrial enterprises. And gives various examples from the late 18th century. Practically all of the socialist literature up until present times has taken capitalist to mean the moneyed or propertied class -- the owner of the means of production.

Malachi, as difficult as it might be for some of you to recognize, is essentially correct: capital is contrasted with labor, and the current system is called capitalism because labor power is subordinate to capital power.

This is why Marxists and others have always claimed that a defining feature of capitalism is wage-labor (a form of exploitation). If the majority, or even a significant number of people, own and control the means of production, then we no longer have capitalism.

Here's the Oxford Dictionary of Philosohph (edited by Simon Blackburn): Mode of socioeconomic organization in which a class of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system.

(He has an entry on exploitation as well).
 
I'm trying to follow this thread, but I'm lost.

I hope that the main authors can help me out by answering a few questions of mine.

(I'll try not to induce accidental topic drift)

1). What is the difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism?

I really think that these two economic philosophies and or systems are getting lumped in together as one by some in this thread.


2). What is the definition of a capitalist.

I apparently do not understand the definition of it, at least the one that seems to be used in this thread. I own shares of Cisco, AMD, Owens Corning, Chevron-Texaco, and through mutual funds hundreds of other corporations. Does that make me a capitalist? I have a friend that owns a laundry mat. Does that make him a capitalist?

Thanks for any explanation, I fear that definitions to some of the key terms being used in this thread are not the orthodox ones I am familiar with, or maybe I need a dictionary. :)
 
Tormac said:
I'm trying to follow this thread, but I'm lost.

I hope that the main authors can help me out by answering a few questions of mine.

(I'll try not to induce accidental topic drift)

1). What is the difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism?

I really think that these two economic philosophies and or systems are getting lumped in together as one by some in this thread.


2). What is the definition of a capitalist.

I apparently do not understand the definition of it, at least the one that seems to be used in this thread. I own shares of Cisco, AMD, Owens Corning, Chevron-Texaco, and through mutual funds hundreds of other corporations. Does that make me a capitalist? I have a friend that owns a laundry mat. Does that make him a capitalist?

Thanks for any explanation, I fear that definitions to some of the key terms being used in this thread are not the orthodox ones I am familiar with, or maybe I need a dictionary. :)

For the most part as "capitlaist" is one who's PRIMARY income is derived from capital investments, or controling "the means of production", so no you would not be a capitalist.

In its purest for the capitalist never produces anything. The wage-laborer is who does the production.

Cain is correct, IF the economy were such that the majority of people OWNED their own means of produciton, i.e. they were self employed, then it would not be a "capitalist" economy. It is a "capitalist" economy when a minority of people own the "means of production" and the majority of people are employed through wage-labor, i.e. paid salaries using the property of the capitalism to produce goods and services.

So, if you own your own means of production then you are neither a capitlaist or a wage-laborer.

Your friend who owns the laundry mat is probably not considered a capitalist because he owns his own means of producing goods and services. Does he employ other workers and does he work himself?

Marxism though is not really much conserned with small business owners, Marxism is talking primarily about factories and mining operations, and things of that nature. Marxism is talking about companies or individuals who employ thousands of people, all of whom have little or no control over their own jobs. The "goal" of Marxism is to work towards everyone having more control over their own jobs instead fo being up to the will of a few powerful "capitalists", teh idea is that prior to the Industrial Revolution individuals had more control over tehi own lives because they owned their own means of production. A shoe maker had a shop and made his own shoes. He own all the tools and supplied needed to make shoes. Now a show maker works in a factory and does not own anything an generally has less control over his own work that before.

Before someone could make shoes all they wanted to and supply and demand was all they had to deal with. They never had to worry about being fired because they owned their own business. Now more people don't own anything that can make money they have to "sell themselves", "sell their labor power" to the capitalist, who hires and fires based on his needs, not that of the employee, which takes control away from the laborer.

Marxism is all just about preventing all of the power from being in the hands of a few people.
 
Malachi, you continue to use your selected definition to define what a capitalist is or is not. It is very, very simple. If you support capitalism you meet one of the requirements needed to be considered a capitalist. That is all. Yes, there are other requirements as well but in order to meet the minimum definition all one has to do to be a capitalist is support the idea of capitalism. If, after this post, you continue to leave this requirement out of your definition of capitalist then you will meet one of the minimum requirements needed to be considered:
stupid

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
 
Hmm I think by Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com my investmenst make me a capitalist (although I've definatly lost more money than made lately <sigh>)

Of course I also have my job were my labor adds value to something that I did not personaly produce, so I am also labor.

Is it because I do not own a controling share of Cisco that I am not a capatalist?

Marx himself may not have been concerned with the small businessman, but I think that Stalin and Mao and any modern government is.

Malachi151 wrote
Marxism is all just about preventing all of the power from being in the hands of a few people.

I agree with you about Marx's goals. Unfortunatly I think others on this thread would define marxism (or at least comunism) by the goals (and brutal actions) of Stalin and Mao.
 
no one in particular said:
Malachi, you continue to use your selected definition to define what a capitalist is or is not. It is very, very simple. If you support capitalism you meet one of the requirements needed to be considered a capitalist. That is all. Yes, there are other requirements as well but in order to meet the minimum definition all one has to do to be a capitalist is support the idea of capitalism. If, after this post, you continue to leave this requirement out of your definition of capitalist then you will meet one of the minimum requirements needed to be considered:

You're obviously too ignorant, or not intelligent enough, to disuss the topic with, you don't even understand word useage, context, and how to use a dictionary.

Go on in your blissful state of ignorance :D
 
Tormac said:
Hmm I think by Merriam-Webster and dictionary.com my investmenst make me a capitalist (although I've definatly lost more money than made lately <sigh>)

Of course I also have my job were my labor adds value to something that I did not personaly produce, so I am also labor.

Is it because I do not own a controling share of Cisco that I am not a capatalist?

Marx himself may not have been concerned with the small businessman, but I think that Stalin and Mao and any modern government is.

Malachi151 wrote


I agree with you about Marx's goals. Unfortunatly I think others on this thread would define marxism (or at least comunism) by the goals (and brutal actions) of Stalin and Mao.

Well, trying to use dictionaries to understand terms like capitalist and Marxism is highly problematic in the first place, dictionaries are not in depth references.

I really have to get packing and get ready to move so I can't go on with this, just do a few searches in Google on economics. Try to at least find a glossary fo terms from an economics book.
 
Malachi151 said:

Marxism is all just about preventing all of the power from being in the hands of a few people.

There is nothing inherent in capitalism that says 'all of the power' must be in the hands of a few people. Although an 'owner' may control his buisness, labourers have the ability to find alternate employment, or even start their own businesses.

To say that Capitalism is about the concentration of power/money into an individual's control is no more accurate than saying Marxism is about the concentration of power ito the hands of an unelected government.
 
I'm disappointed that no one can help me out with the difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism.

I saw several posts in this thread that seemed to imply that the polices that the Europeans held towards their colonies were examples of Capitalist and free market exploitation, when I was always under the impression that 17th and 18th century economics were certainly not ruled by the principles of free market capitalism, but mercantilism instead.

Thanks for the help Malachi151. I know that the subjects are complicated ones, and it is hard to explain ones beliefs about a subject in the limiting confines of a short definition from a dictionary.
 
Malachi151 said:
"Capitalists" don't do work, by definition. A capitalist is someoen who controls capital.

:rolleyes:

Hopeless. Simply hopeless.

They don't work, they invest and they employ. Someone who is mixing cement is not a capitalist, they are a laborer.

Laborers are capitalists, too. They're a part of the capitalist system, and they both contribute to it and benefit from it.
 
Malachi151 said:
In its purest for the capitalist never produces anything.

Absolute and complete bullsh*t. They provide goods and services, and get compensated for them, just like laborers do.

There really is no difference between the consumer market and the labor market, except that the roles are generally reversed.

Your friend who owns the laundry mat is probably not considered a capitalist because he owns his own means of producing goods and services.

Wait, I thought a capitalist was anyone who controlled the means of production? This sounds like doublespeak to me.

Marxism is talking about companies or individuals who employ thousands of people, all of whom have little or no control over their own jobs.

:rolleyes:

In other words, fantasy la-la land. Everyone has full control over their own jobs. Whether or not they choose to exercise it is up to them.

Marxism is all just about preventing all of the power from being in the hands of a few people.

What you're blatantly ignoring is that these struggling masses have it much, much better off now than they did under the system you pine for. The economies of scale, which is what you get with large corporations, has an intense ability to create wealth, and the creation of wealth always benefits everybody.
 
Malachi151 said:


You're obviously too ignorant, or not intelligent enough, to disuss the topic with, you don't even understand word useage, context, and how to use a dictionary.

Go on in your blissful state of ignorance :D

That sound you hear is that of numerous Irony-Meters exploding...
 
Malachi151 said:
I really have to get packing and get ready to move so I can't go on with this, just do a few searches in Google on economics. Try to at least find a glossary fo terms from an economics book.

Malachi, I've posted enough facts about economics in the course of my tenure on this forum to be able to make an economics textbook of my own. Believe me: You don't have the slightest clue what economics is all about.
 
shanek how much work do you think goes into investing a millions dollars? I wonder how much work the CEO of Cisco or GM does, I bet they put more hours in the office in than I do. Maybe they are not "capitalists" either then.


Oh and for anyone who was courious, the first site that came up for me in a google search for "mercantilism" took me to here:
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/mercantilism.html

the second one was here:

http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/mercanti.html

They are interesting reads, and do not sound like free-market capitalism to me.
 
shanek you're an idiot who has no clue what you are talking about.. Go to college and learn *something*!
 
Originally posted by Malachi151:
shanek you're an idiot who has no clue what you are talking about.. Go to college and learn *something*!

Well, at least it's not just me you fling ad-homs at. :rolleyes:

Let's do a reprise of some of the things you've been saying:

I really have to get packing and get ready to move so I can't go on with this, just do a few searches in Google on economics. Try to at least find a glossary fo terms from an economics book.

Look up an economics book? This from the man who had already said the following:

Yeah right, like they are going to site that. Textbooks are nest to useless for learning anything significant, thats just stupid drivel for the masses.

Well, you know what they say about "stupid is as stupid does". ;)
 

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