Misconceptions that believers have about atheists

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ooh_child, someone edited your post and added an "X" in front of each occurence of "ian."

~~ Paul

 

[triadboy]

I get the idea that Xians think atheists are bad/lost Xians who need to be helped back up on the saddle of the Lord.

also

They don't believe in the many Hindu gods - but are stymied that I believe in one less god than them.

 

[RandFan]

Xian: It takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is God!

I used to believe this. It was James Randi that diabused me of this notion. No, it doesn't take faith to believe that there is no god, santa clause, tooth fairy or invisible pink unicorns.

 

[Atlas]

"If you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from doing whatever you want?"

When I was a young Catholic lad this was the question that scared me about atheists.

I wanted to discuss the issue with atheists but it seemed like an over the top question to ask straight out. Yah, I probably was a Christian weakling - actually worried about the sensibilities of people who were going to burn in hell forever.

I wanted to ask them a question they could not answer and I wanted it to be positive. Here is what I formulated to attack the godless.

Why is it a good thing to lead a good life?

My problem came with how I would ever answer it myself to an atheist without referencing heaven or hell. I couldn't. I had no reason at all why leading a good life was of any value except that it'll keep you out of hell and get you into heaven. And because I couldn't answer it I believed all the more strongly that atheists too would see no value in it and choose to live in evil and hedonism.

Did you get that? It was because I couldn't find an answer within my experience that I believed there was none and it caused me to mistrust atheists all the more.

Later I heard an aphorism that sounded stupid but I instantly recognized it as an answer to my question. Looking back on it from my vantage here in the over 50 crowd it sounds alot more like truth than it did then: A life well lived is its own reward.

 

[Bruce]

Why is it a good thing to lead a good life?

...........

A life well lived is its own reward.

That's an excellent answer.

I would have answered it this way. What is the very first thing you learn as a child about social behavior? If you be nice to the other kids, they will be nice to you. I believe most of our concepts of good and evil stem from that simple realization. All other concepts of 'living a good life' involve the preservation of personal health, both physical and mental.

I also believe that the need to believe in God and an afterlife stems primarily from the fear of death, and perhaps also from the fear of isolation. In many people, these fears are so overwhelming that the idea that God may not exist is unbearable, as well as the idea that death is truly the end. Many atheists see that as being weak-minded. I don't necessarily think believers are weak minded. I have weaknesses of the mind as well, but in different ways.

 

[RandFan]

A life well lived is its own reward.

Exactly. We want to be kind and compasionate. Why would we care otherwise. Why bother asking the question at all? Because we do care, at least many if not most of us do. I will say that goodness itself is its own reward.

 

[merphie]

A life well lived is its own reward.

What about, nice guys finish last?

Actually, I have better morales and principles then most of the religious people I know.

My cousin, who is very religious, thinks it is ok to sleep with another woman's husband because she is not doing the cheating. He is.

I just like the bible for it's humor. Like I could rape a woman, pay her father 50 silver pieces and marry her. Then when I was tired with her I could declare her evil and demand the father give the token of a Virgin. If he couldn't (Which he probably can't in this day and age) she would be stoned to death in front of him!

It's all in the good book. How's that for morales?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Why is it a good thing to lead a good life?

By definition.

This is another thing that freaks me out about Christians of the fundie variety --- they claim (as part of the Proof That I Must Be Evil) that without the imaginary carrot and the imaginary stick, everyone must naturally go around being as evil as possible. The idea that someone might actually love good and hate evil seems foreign to them --- they suppose that humans are naturally psychopaths, who wil naturally do evil unless you give them some strong selfish motivation not to.

This view of humanity is not only wrong, but warped and sinister. It also contradicts Jesus' opinion that loving your neighbour, who you have seen, is necessarily easier than loving God, who you haven't seen, something which I shall point out next time I hear this fatuous bilge.

I think the number 1 misconception people have about atheists, at least that I've encountered, is that if they explain to me the stupid hate-filled misconceptions they have about atheists, I'll be so moved by their hatred, stupidity and lies as to suddenly convert to whatever religion they're peddling.

 

[Dr Adequate]

- "I hear that April 1st is National Atheist Day."

A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Now I come to think of it, that's always what I want to know when they start lecturing me on atheism.

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

 

[Bruce]

A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Now I come to think of it, that's always what I want to know when they start lecturing me on atheism.

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

That was actually a bumper sticker I saw on a fundie vehicle. The bumper sticker became popular in this area and the saying began showing up on church signs. It's now part of the rhetoric. Much akin to the pollack jokes we told each other as kids, it's a condescending joke meant to paint atheists as fools.

 

[Ladewig]

By definition.

This is another thing that freaks me out about Christians of the fundie variety --- they claim (as part of the Proof That I Must Be Evil) that without the imaginary carrot and the imaginary stick, everyone must naturally go around being as evil as possible. The idea that someone might actually love good and hate evil seems foreign to them ---

Well, to be fair to those folks. Some of them believe that while non-believers may want to choose good and avoid evil, they cannot do so because they are incapable of distinguishing good from evil because they lack a moral compass (the Bible). In the minds of the believers, "good" is defined only as "what God wants us to do." They believe without an Absolute Moral Authority, atheists are incapable of identifying and choosing good.

 

[Bruce]

Well, to be fair to those folks. Some of them believe that while non-believers may want to choose good and avoid evil, they cannot do so because they are incapable of distinguishing good from evil because they lack a moral compass (the Bible). In the minds of the believers, "good" is defined only as "what God wants us to do." They believe without an Absolute Moral Authority, atheists are incapable of identifying and choosing good.

Thus the root of the misconception.

 

[Edwin]

Another one: Atheists have never heard of God. If someone tells us about Jesus, we will no doubt immediately believe and worship him.

I'm not sure how that sits with the idea that we know God exists but reject him.

 

[Bruce]

I'm going to cut and paste some points that were made by atheists that have posted here and print them as hand-out material for the students. Don't worry, I've cited your name along with your comments. I'm also citing the JREF website and forum. Maybe we can lure in some new recruits.

 

[Bruce]

The professor has reviewed this thread and asked me to add a reply for her. She didn't have time to figure out how to register herself, so I'm cutting and pasting from her e-mail. I'll show her how to register today. Hopefully, she will become a regular visitor.

I couldn't figure out how to make a simple response to one of the comments you posted in the link you started in the forum (it wanted to know where in JREF I wanted to post and I could not figure out where to go so you would get this ) so am emailing.
Just wanted to respond to your comment that I 'assumed atheism is a religion and at least a belief system.'
I guess I mispoke because I try to be careful not to refer to atheism as a religion and in fact am only covering it in this course because no one else is covering it (ethics or multicultural courses). So it was important to me that you know that I do not consider it a religion but also wondered if you consider it a belief system?
(a small note for forum -we refer to those who come to us as clients)
please let forum know that we are not attempting to bring "spirituality" into counseling but attempting to learn how to consider it for those who have no clergy (and do have a sense of spirituality) and or those who are suffering from things that spirituality impacts for them; hence, not all and in fact, many clients will not want spirituality to enter the room. but for those who do, how do we do it? for those who have existential issues that attach to their depression, anxiety, grief, etc., AND WANT SPIRITUALITY IN THE ROOM, (hope that isnt offensive--just salient) how do we do it?
so the purpose of teaching students to understand atheism is that they stand a good chance of seeing a significant number of people who are atheists, and to understand what they need and how they need to be viewed and how we keep our "stuff" out of the room in order to help them. is not about projecting or misplacing any spirituality at all--only about understanding them. and to have you come and speak to the students will help them connect with a real person and make the learning and experience so much more rich.
feel free to copy this to the web. maybe you can show me how to respond to an actual post when you come in or in an email. I would be happy to enter the discussion to learn more.

 

[Beerina]

A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Excellent idea! "If this is how a Christian behaves, giving offense, then I decide I won't be a Christian. Therefore, I'm going to hell. Therefore, so are you, since you drove me from Christ by giving witness as what a Christian is: one who gives offense."

See if that shuts him up!

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

It all actually ultimately derives from the winter solstice. Shortest day of the year is a good place to decide it's the end of the year. Let's have a party!

 

[Atlas]

Bruce, this is probably arriving too late to help you make your presentation. But I wanted to share my thoughts anyway. I have no training in psychology. So take this for what it's worth. I'm addressing your professor's thoughts.

So it was important to me that you know that I do not consider it a religion but also wondered if you consider it a belief system?

Their are very few atheists that I've talked to that call atheism a belief system, nevertheless there are a few belief patterns. The primary 'belief' has the do with the name... atheist. To a greater or smaller extent 'God', for them, is impossible. Especially the Judeo-Christian-Islamic omni-everything God. Views on this can be hard or soft. Some believe that evidence might sway them, others cannot imagine any possible evidence could exist for the "fairy tale". These people are downright hostile at times when "evidence" is presented. For them alternate explanations abound and are preferred. They remain skeptical when someone brings forth a small, red, riding hood - holds it up and says "See, This proves the Little Red Riding Hood story is true. I found it in the woods on my way to Grandma's house. What more do you want?" Further, they are even more skeptical if the claim involves supernatural magic. "I tell you I saw the riding hood, but when I approached it - glowing beings appeared, grabbed it, and disappeared."

Atheists don't have much appreciation for supernatural magic. They generally have a deep appreciation of science and the laws of physics.

Because they reject common understandings of God, there arises different common understandings or 'beliefs' about their own fate, which they accept as the common fate of all humankind. All face the same fate - there are no high or low options. Coarsely put, we are all worm food.

Existential angst arises from the contemplation of our common dark fate when we get trapped and obsess on that notion. But curiously, if we do not get trapped and obsess, it can provide a reason to live each day to the fullest. Religionists and atheists alike adopt strategies, different though they are, that lead to acceptance of the dark reality of the human condition while liberating the individual from it so that he may proceed to live a rich and fulfilling life. Obviously some are more successful in the implementation of their strategy.

To the atheist mind, we are all in this together and we are all we have, we sink or swim together. It is a humanity oriented perspective. Religionists perceive that the atheist must be egocentric, but that just doesn't seem to be the case.

Atheists value life because it is so finite. They value the contributions and sacrifices that those who have gone before them have made that produced the world they live in. They feel a responsibility to their family and community and hope to make the world better still for those who come after.

Why would they? For the same real reason that the religionist behaves that way. In Christian teaching we must reject the world, we must be in it but not of it. The next life is what we must be about. How does making the world a better place square with the rejection of it demanded by faith? It would be easier to reject it if we lived in squalor than suburbia.

The embraceable science of the atheist helps us conclude that there is likely an evolutionary advantage in the cooperative effort that we naturally employ to make our world more livable. It's part of our nature. We bend the strategy of religion to fit our nature more than it bends us.

... many clients will not want spirituality to enter the room. but for those who do, how do we do it? for those who have existential issues that attach to their depression, anxiety, grief, etc., AND WANT SPIRITUALITY IN THE ROOM, (hope that isnt offensive--just salient) how do we do it?

For me, the best strategy would be one that works for everybody. That is, one that is humanity centric, that recognizes that we are all basically the same fragile creature afflicted with many of the same torments regardless of what strategy we've adopted to help us deal with them.

So I think as a counselor you must validate your client's particular anguish. But it's probably not too healthy to let him dwell on his disabling obsession. It has obviously weakened him and continuing talk might reinforce the feelings he is tormented by. After all, he's been successful in rationalizing himself into this condition. He knows the territory. He's come to you to find his way out. If he walks away more discouraged than when he entered he will not continue to seek help with you and maybe not seek it at all.

One way to break the disabling self talk momentarily is to ask if these are new feelings or if they have always been there. Get him talking about the times in his life when he was most happy or most strong and fearless, or the people in his life that he loves. Ask him how he that felt. You cannot talk about a feeling unless you regenerate it to some small extent. The more bright, happy, strong experiences you can elicit the more strength to deal with the darkness you impart.

In the worst case he walks out happy but beset by same dark emotions later and will return for another strength injection. The best case will relax him enough to sleep well and wake with a new appreciation. Sometimes that's all we really need. Just a moment free, from our demons, to collect ourselves.

Languagewise, I think it's best to use the terms of your client. If he's talking about souls and angels, recognize that these are but terms within the strategy he employs. Feel free to engage him where he is at. If you cannot divine the terms of the client's strategy, stick with inoffensive terms. Terms like 'intellectual light', 'light of mind', 'heart' - they all mean the same thing. 'Light' is always good because it has a secondary meaning that is, perhaps, uplifting.

Just one more thing, 'heart' and 'soul' speak to the emotional nature of the client, as 'light of mind' does to the intellectual nature. The reason I say they are the same is that we are integrated beings. Though it is useful at times to address those individual natures, that analytical breakdown must give way to the synthetic recreation of a healthy self. People come to you because they are broke and wish to be put back together like they were before. Give a feeling and a supporting idea to supplant that which troubles the client and you've given him armor against his demons.

 

[Bruce]

Thank you Atlas. I'm reading your post at 2am because I'm having some trouble sleeping. I plan on writing a review of how the day went when I'm feeling up to it, but in short, it went GREAT.

The professor did not mean to catagorize atheism as a belief system. It all comes down to language issues. The english language is very rooted in theology and lacks words to express atheist views. This was one of the points I discussed with the students.

Atheists use spiritually related expressions all the time. I told them that I say things like, "This person seemed spirited", "You're an angel", "You've got soul", and "Oh my God!". I never mean them in the literal sense, but rather in metaphorical terms. There are no equivalents terms or expressions for atheists.

I told them never to say to an admitted atheist in a counseling session, "I noticed you said oh my God. I thought you were an atheist." I assured them it's a language thing, not a Freudian slip. I also warned them your patient is likely to slam the door and never return.

Thank you for the suggestions and viewpoints. I'll have to read them again when I have more energy. Lot's of words and terms there I haven't used in years. Memory's a little foggy. "Existential angst" IIRC, is when you pull a muscle in your back, correct? Never mind, I'll look it up tomorrow. Goodnight.

 

[merphie]

Atheists use spiritually related expressions all the time. I told them that I say things like, "This person seemed spirited", "You're an angel", "You've got soul", and "Oh my God!". I never mean them in the literal sense, but rather in metaphorical terms. There are no equivalents terms or expressions for atheists.

I've run into what you talked about a lot. I've been tryign to teach myself to use "cat" instead of "god".

 

[Blue Bubble]

I've run into what you talked about a lot. I've been tryign to teach myself to use "cat" instead of "god".

I've taken to using a nice spoonerism:

"Oh my Dog!"

They still hear it as "Oh my God", even when written.