Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

[Slowvehicle]

Humots,
- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole. If we're assigning a confidence level to the age of the linen, we need to take that issue into account -- and we haven't.

Mr. Savage:

You continue rudely, and dishonestly, ignoring this:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/turin_shroud_still_a_fake/

...So once again, attacks on the accuracy of the radiocarbon testing have been discredited...

...There is no mass spectrometry evidence that the C14 sample from the Shroud of Turin comes from a ‘medieval invisible mending.’...

________

 

[Slowvehicle]

Hans,
- Shouldn't they address that issue in their article?

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/turin_shroud_still_a_fake/

 

[John Jones]

Jabba,

You've got nothing.

 

[ComfySlippers]

Turin Shroud: DNA and pollen from all over the world found on cloth, new study finds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-found-on-cloth-scientists-say-a6693101.html

ETA: says it was made in India

 

[Mojo]

- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole.

If the sample came from part of the original cloth, then the whole cloth cannot be older than the sample.

 

[Craig4]

Humots,
- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole. If we're assigning a confidence level to the age of the linen, we need to take that issue into account -- and we haven't.

You are aware that all three labs cleaned their samples right?

 

[Belz...]

Hans,
- Oops! I really screwed up! The Devil must have made me do it!
- I used the absolute wrong word above. I should have said "sample" rather than "patch." "Patch" only confused the issue. I should have said, "The 95% confidence of their dating was for the particular sample they studied -- it was not for the the linen of the shroud."
- Would you agree with that statement?

I'm willing to accept your explanation that this was a mistake.

No, I don't agree.

 

[Belz...]

Humots,
- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole.

Yeah we do. The point is that you don't want to accept it. That's different.

 

[catsmate]

I see you're refusing to address my points Jabba.

- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample,

A sample that was perfectly adequate for radiocarbon dating using AMS.

and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole.

The sample are was chosen by a group of experts, scrutinised in advance and again after the sample was removed. It was the same as the rest of teh shroud, no magic patch to save your need to invalidate the test.

If we're assigning a confidence level to the age of the linen, we need to take that issue into account -- and we haven't.

Rubbish.

 

[catsmate]

You are aware that all three labs cleaned their samples right?

I've asked Jabba to describe the contamination that could survive the cleansing. He's ignored this, like he ignore other awkward questions.

 

[Craig4]

If the sample came from part of the original cloth, then the whole cloth cannot be older than the sample.

I'll also point out the the Law of Superposition says the image on the cloth has to be newer than the cloth itself. The cloth could have been around for a while before the image became imprinted on it.

The carbon date gives of a terminus post quem of 1300ish meaning that the plant used to make the sample stopped taking in carbon 14 about 1300 CE. Since the sample area is part of the original, the entire cloth has to have been made after 1300.

 

[Mojo]

I'll also point out the the Law of Superposition says the image on the cloth has to be newer than the cloth itself. The cloth could have been around for a while before the image became imprinted on it.

The carbon date gives of a terminus post quem of 1300ish meaning that the plant used to make the sample stopped taking in carbon 14 about 1300 CE. Since the sample area is part of the original, the entire cloth has to have been made after 1300.

I'm waiting for him to argue that the cloth could have been made of threads of various different ages, so it is possible that parts of it are around 2000 years old even if the sample was 14th century...

 

[zooterkin]

- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole.

Why wouldn't it be representative?

 

[Craig4]

I'm waiting for him to argue that the cloth could have been made of threads of various different ages, so it is possible that parts of it are around 2000 years old even if the sample was 14th century...

That will avail him not. Even if the cloth was partially made out of linen yarn that had been stored for 1300 years, the carbon date for the artifact gives the terminus post quem or "date after which" of 1300. At any rate, the appearance of linen yarn separated by 1300 years would be rather obvious which shoots down the patch or repair ideas.

 

[abaddon]

Humots,
- All I'm saying is that the measurements were done on a small sample, and we don't know what the probability is that the sample is essentially representative of the whole. If we're assigning a confidence level to the age of the linen, we need to take that issue into account -- and we haven't.

Nuff said.

 

[Mojo]

That will avail him not. Even if the cloth was partially made out of linen yarn that had been stored for 1300 years, the carbon date for the artifact gives the terminus post quem or "date after which" of 1300. At any rate, the appearance of linen yarn separated by 1300 years would be rather obvious which shoots down the patch or repair ideas.

Indeed. But what makes you think that would stop him arguing it?

 

[Monza]

Jabba,

Would you please provide your opinion regarding why C14 testing was performed? What was the purpose?

 

[Lucian]

Turin Shroud: DNA and pollen from all over the world found on cloth, new study finds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-found-on-cloth-scientists-say-a6693101.html

ETA: says it was made in India

Here's the original article. I've started reading it, and there are some things in the introduction that are raising my hackles. They give the shroud a hypothetical life story that comes directly from the Shroud Believers' Playbook:

Such a scenario is supported by numerous scholars who believe that the journey of TS began in Jerusalem in the year 30 or 33 AD. After concealment for years, TS would have been first moved to Edessa (now Şanliurfa in Turkey) and then to Constantinople (now Istanbul in Turkey) in 944 AD. A burial cloth, which some historians consider the Shroud, was owned by the Byzantine emperors but disappeared during the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 [etc.]

Once they get to the actual known provenance of the thing, they don't mention the D'Arcis memo which declared it a fake. Moving on to C14 testing of the shroud, they say,

In 1988, the age of the TS linen cloth was assessed by accelerator mass spectrometry. Results of radiocarbon measurements from distinct and independent laboratories yielded a calendar age range of 1260–1390 AD, with 95% confidence, thus providing robust evidence for a Medieval recent origin of TS. However, two papers have highlighted some concerns about this determination, and a Medieval age does not appear to be compatible with the production technology of the linen nor with the chemistry of fibers obtained directly from the main part of the cloth in 1978.

They treat the Rogers paper perfectly seriously rather than just pointing and giggling. That's worrisome.

Based on the abstract, the DNA study of vacuumed particles is consistent with either a medieval date and European origin or with an ancient date and complicated origin ("Such diversity does not exclude a Medieval origin in Europe but it would be also compatible with the historic path followed by the Turin Shroud during its presumed journey from the Near East. Furthermore, the results raise the possibility of an Indian manufacture of the linen cloth").

Anyway, I was wondering if someone who speaks science could offer a perspective on the article. It seems to me that it doesn't really offer any useful information regarding authenticity at all since it's unclear how the pollen and other stuff got on the shroud (and when it got there). They found pollen that has a center of origin in the Americas, but I don't think they're actually suggesting that the shroud hitched a ride with Magellan.

 

[Jabba]

Carbon Dating Doubts/Sample Not Representative?

- From http://shroud.com/nature.htm
- The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidencefor the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval.

- That statement is misleading.
- The mathematics involved referred only to the sample. It, in no way, included any estimate of the extent to which the sample represented the whole -- and that issue became a serious one as soon as the Church imposed its restrictions. One tiny sample from a highly questionable area...

 

[Craig4]

- From http://shroud.com/nature.htm
- The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidencefor the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval.

- That statement is misleading.
- The mathematics involved referred only to the sample. It, in no way, included any estimate of the extent to which the sample represented the whole -- and that issue became a serious one as soon as the Church imposed its restrictions. One tiny sample from a highly questionable area...

Am I talking to myself here? The section is not questionable. It was part of the whole cloth and can be no older than the date the flax stopped taking in Carbon 14.