Minutemen & Uncomfortable bedpartners

[Mephisto]

Shortly after 9/11 everyone was talking about our shoddy intelligence gathering and the fact that our government's policy of NOT dealing with unscrupulous types hinders our intelligence gathering capabilities.

It was finally admitted by several sources that sometimes we'll have to hop into a relationship with the type of people we'd rather not introduce to our family if we're going to get reliable "inside" intelligence.

What better chance than now, with all the Ted Nugent fans patrolling our southern borders? There has been wide speculation that middle-eastern terrorists are likely to enter the U.S. through the Mexican border, and I believe the possibility has become a probability. If we must choose to mix with the criminal element to maintain quality intelligence, why not Mexican smugglers?

Certainly smugglers bring many unwelcome things across our borders, but neither our laws nor our "war on drugs" have stopped them. Their expertise is only evident when the unluckiest of them get caught.

I've engaged in conversations with people who have endorsed "exchanging information" with, or "allowing favors" for Muslim radicals in exchange for information, but bring up a symbiotic relationship with people who routinely sneak people and equipment over our southern borders and they go crazy!

It would seem to me that a complimentary "turn of the head" on occasion would be worth knowing when groups of dark-haired, dark-eyed men with moustaches who couldn't speak Spanish were trying to hire the services of smugglers.

Of course, I could just be biased. I'm a lower middle-class Hispanic living in southern New Mexico.

Mephisto

 

[uruk]

Well, no doubt middle eastern terrorists have probably entered through mexico. But I was wondering what kind of training do the minuetmen have? Can they tell a spanish speaking middle-easterner from a spanish speaking mexican?

 

[Cleon]

Well, no doubt middle eastern terrorists have probably entered through mexico. But I was wondering what kind of training do the minuetmen have? Can they tell a spanish speaking middle-easterner from a spanish speaking mexican?

I'd wager a guess that they can't tell a Spanish-speaking Mexican from an Arabic-speaking Saudi.

 

[username]

I agree in principle that working with seedy characters is a necessity for good, on the ground intel, but I do not believe the vigilantee border enforcers are the right folks for the job. The CIA would be a better choice for this sort of operation.

The problem with the vigilantees is that they have no training and are likely ideologically opposed to any form of cooperation. Further they aren't likely to be able to make contacts with anyone "high up" enough to gain any useful information.

Definitely a job for the pros, not amatuers.

Of course we have domestic policies that would be in direct conflict with this sort of operation. Working with drug smugglers would be remnisient of Iran-contra. I personally favor a total overhaul of our anti drug efforts to focus on education, prevention and treatment rather than interdiction and inprisonment. With our existing policies, however, working with the smugglers would be almost evil as US citizens would continue to be prosecuted for crimes aided and abetted by the same government doing the prosecution. I have serious problems with that.

As far as the immigration smugglers I have less of a problem, but I somehow doubt that the 'professions' of drug smuggling and immigrant smuggling are really distinct from one another.

 

[Mephisto]

I agree with you 100%, username

I think that the Minutemen militia group can only be detrimental to border security. They are basically a group of armed rednecks who will eventually raise tensions on the southern border.

They have no training, they have no badges and they have no sympathy for the people making the dangerous trek across the desert. They do have nationalist pride and they do have guns.

I'm suggesting that the problem of border security in the SW U.S. be left up to professionals like politicians and lawmen, you know, unscrupulous characters who could actually swing a deal with Mexican smugglers.

Mephisto

 

[Grammatron]

Re: I agree with you 100%, username

I think that the Minutemen militia group can only be detrimental to border security. They are basically a group of armed rednecks who will eventually raise tensions on the southern border.

They have no training, they have no badges and they have no sympathy for the people making the dangerous trek across the desert. They do have nationalist pride and they do have guns.

I'm suggesting that the problem of border security in the SW U.S. be left up to professionals like politicians and lawmen, you know, unscrupulous characters who could actually swing a deal with Mexican smugglers.

Mephisto

I might have afreed with you had I not learned about the Minutemen and now that I have you are way off base.

Firstly some of them are armed only for protection, second all they do is monitor and report to border patrols and avoid direct interactions as much as possible. All their encounters are recorded by cameras that each member is required to have with them at all times.

As far as sympathy goes I am not sure if they have or they don't have. They claim to oppose the illegal immigration only especially in the wake of 9/11. They probably do care more about US citizens than those of Mexico but then again they are US citizens.

 

[Kodiak]

Re: Re: I agree with you 100%, username

Firstly some of them are armed only for protection, second all they do is monitor and report to border patrols and avoid direct interactions as much as possible. All their encounters are recorded by cameras that each member is required to have with them at all times.

Thank you for saving me the trouble...

 

[crimresearch]

This is the second thread in which Mephisto has made his comments about corrupt law enforcement along the border...and I would like to see references here, just as much as I would in the other thread.

 

[jay gw]

Corrupt law enforcement?

Here:

Mexican state sacks entire police

Federal police have taken over security in central Mexico's Morelos state after a governor dismissed its entire police force.

The state's 552 policemen were sacked after the arrest of two top officers for allegedly protecting a drugs gang.

State governor Sergio Estrada said all the policemen had handed back their weapons while each one's record in the job was being scrutinised.

The two officers are accused of helping the Juarez cartel smuggle cocaine.

State police chief Jose Augustine Montiel and his operations director, Raul Cortes, are being held on suspicion of cutting a deal with the gang, which gets its name from a town near the US border where it is apparently based.

Five other suspects - also state employees - are on the run.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3621073.stm

And:

Gen. Jose de Jesus Gutierrez Rebollo, Mexico's highest ranking anti-drug official, was fired and arrested on charges that he accepted bribes in exchange for protecting a high-level Mexican drug trafficker ten weeks after he was appointed.

http://www.ndsn.org/marapr97/drugczar.html

And:

An ambitious effort to overhaul Mexico's corrupt law-enforcement system has been thrown into turmoil by the disclosure that top investigators of an elite American-trained police unit may have ties to drug traffickers, American officials say.

The disclosure emerged after recent lie-detector tests administered, at Mexican authorities' request, to Mexican police agents by American Government experts.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Chemistry/Chem101/war/html pages/091698mexico-police-drugs.html

And:

MEXICO CITY, Mexico - The administration of Mexican President Vicente Fox is struggling to limit damage to its already tarnished police force, following a drug scandal at the vacation resort of Cancun. Experts warn the drug cartels are gaining power.

Prosecutors from the attorney general's office have arrested 25 police officers and two civilian workers. They are still hunting for 13 suspects. The officers detained are from the local, state, and federal forces.

http://news.caribseek.com/Caribbean/article_10900.shtml

You don't really think the Mexican government cares about immigrants, do you? The real issue is that the Minutemen are preventing the flow of drugs to the United States and costing money.

 

[crimresearch]

That's funny..when did the Mexican authorities start patrolling on the US side of border?

 

[jay gw]

That's funny..when did the Mexican authorities start patrolling on the US side of border?

Mexican authorities don't patrol borders, they work for drug smugglers.

 

[crimresearch]

Nice try, but the topic is activities, including corrupt law enforcement on the US side of the border.

 

[Grammatron]

Mexican authorities don't patrol borders, they work for drug smugglers.

You started the conversation with inferences at US side of the border thus articles on Mexican Authoraties are nothing more than a non sequitor.

 

[jay gw]

Nice try, but the topic is activities, including corrupt law enforcement on the US side of the border.

I would imagine that the Mexican and Colombian drug kingpins have approached American law enforcement too. They've been successful at bribing everyone in their own countries, so it would not surprise me in the least.

 

[Grammatron]

I would imagine that the Mexican and Colombian drug kingpins have approached American law enforcement too. They've been successful at bribing everyone in their own countries, so it would not surprise me in the least.

So you don't have evidence then, thanks for letting us know that.

 

[drkitten]

I would imagine that the Mexican and Colombian drug kingpins have approached American law enforcement too. They've been successful at bribing everyone in their own countries, so it would not surprise me in the least.

I would imagine that Aragorn is a much better swordsman than Sir Lancelot, too. Similarly, it would not surprise me in the least if Legolas were a substantially better archer than Robin Hood. Unfortunately, imagination and/or a lack of surprise make poor substitutes for knowledge, evidence, and facts.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm not surprised to hear that.

I imagine it is all JayGW has.

 

[SezMe]

Re: I agree with you 100%, username

I think that the Minutemen militia group can only be detrimental to border security.

Actually, I think they have already been wildly successful. They have brought national attention to a horrible security problem. I think the utter nonsense on both sides of the aisles and, especially the Bush Administration regarding their "amnesty" plans is less likely to fly as a result of the Minutemen. Good for them.

 

[President Bush]

It's thanks to our US capitalism and its creativity and humble greatness and all that these illeagals just want to be themselves and come for Starbucks and Pizza Hut and own stock and smash conformity. My Mexican banker just got a jet ski.

But Karl tells me to stay with Brand X on the campaign trail. Wetbacks laughing at you in Spanish everywhere all the time aren't cool, especially when they have a pierced navel .

 

[Grammatron]

Thanks for that racist quote buddy, really moves forward this conversation.