Million Dollar Challenge - should it stay?

[GzuzKryzt]

No sorry Randi but i disagree with you. No matter how you try to tell this story the woo-woo's will claim it as a Victory. "See i told you, there never WAS a million"..... Using the money now is a horrible mistake even if it is used for a very good purpose. The million need to be there in order for Randi to "put his money where his mouth is".

Anyone with a serious interest can get all necessary information from the JREF and Goldman-Sachs. We can only point to the facts, we can't force-feed them to anyone.

 

[Speed of Light]

Using Media Presence as Eligibility Criteria is illogical, as the media are more interested in Sensational or Extravagant claims, which are less likely to succeed - and those seeking publicity are more likely to have ulterior motives Eg Financial reasons, or ego needs.
Eligibility criteria is normally used to narrow the field down to those who are more likely to succeed, but with this challenge, the opposite is the case - They are more likely to fail - The conditions are therefore unfair. Anyone can get media exposure, if they really try, anyway. It doesn't prove anything except that they are more 'determined' or 'obsessive' about entering the challenge.

Seems that, by your own words, the media requirement isn't all that limiting after all, is it?

You don't seem to have addressed any of the points that I made, and instead, you made a blanket statement without including any reasoning or arguments to back it up, highlighting one sentence taking it out of context, and ignoring everything else that I said

 

[Speed of Light]

Can I suggest using another eligibility criteria -
Simply say that if anyone can pass one of the other (named) psychic challenges, then they could apply for this one - That should narrow it down a bit!
This would keep the challenge going, but drastically reduce the workload.
I'm sure that the financial problems could be overcome somehow

May I suggest that, if you were to pass one of the other challenges, it would be quite likely you would get your name in the paper, thus satisfying the media requirement?

Again, it seems that you haven't comprehended the full picture of what I was trying to say, and the reason I was suggesting it -
My suggestion was to have a 'new' eligibility criteria and to discard the old one - the idea being that using just the media requirement, many more people would make claims, but having to pass another challenge, would
drastically reduce the workload.
I suggested it as a way of continuing the challenge after the expiry date, rather than now

 

[devnull]

The MDC should definitely go.

The big names are always going to dodge it, no matter what. They can come up with a million excuses.

At the moment the MDC only attracts the mentally ill. As such, I dont think its worth continuing.

I hope Randi closes it in a hail of "we ran it for decades and received nothing but talk" publicity though.

 

[chillzero]

At the moment the MDC only attracts the mentally ill. As such, I dont think its worth continuing.

As an almost previous challenger, I have to disagree here. That's actually quite an insulting statement.

I hate to see how such sweeping generalisations are regularly made, with no real research or evidence. There are other people like myself who came here to take the challenge, or to consider if what they believe fits in with the criteria. I took time to research and learn here before sending in my application, and luckily for me that meant my application never happened, because I realised what was actually happening.

I know there are other people here who started off believing in various aspects of the paranormal, and I don't know that so many would have been sent or attracted to this site if not for the challenge. Just because they don't all result in applications doesn't mean that the existence of the challenge isn't attracting people to the site in the first place. And just because you perceive applicants in a certain light, doesn't mean that everyone who is drawn here by the existence of the challenge is some kind of fruitcake.

Please think for a few moments about the wider implications of the challenge. It has been an effective 'bait' to draw people here for years, and has definitely contributed to some of the forum growth. Don't box people into one small category, because the truth of the matter is that intelligent people can be fooled, and can be deluded. The challenge does not only impact those who directly apply for it. It leads others to examine their beliefs, and learn where they are misunderstanding things, or where their knowledge has holes that they are then able to fill in with the assistance of many of our helpful members.

I am very sorry to see it go, because the existence of it helped me completely transform my life, and chnage my life direction 180 degrees. However, I understand why it is being done.

I can only hope that if, 3 years from now another person like myself is talking on another forum about their psychic abilities - as I was - that they would still be directed HERE, as I was. The history of the challenge will still exist, and hopefully the forum too, and links to other challenges that exist. This is an incredible resource for information about testing and cold reading and so on. I would hope that we can still change lives, and spread knowledge, whether the challenge exists or not.

 

[BigDad13]

I am just finishing Randi's book Flim Flam for the first time (I know..."what took you so long!"), and just this morning read the start of the last chapter where he outlines the original Challenge (back then it was $10K, as you all know). Not that things can't change, but in the book he states that the challenge will survive even Randi himself...that there was a stipulation in his will to ensure that even after his death, the offer would still exist.

I think the money is a lure and an effective one to some extent. It has managed to call out some big names, even if they have not taken the test...it has made the likes of Sylvia Brown squirm and be further exposed. So, in my opinion, the challenge still works, but perhaps it makes sense to do TWO challenges. One at a lower dollar amount for the "everyday" claims, and a larger sum for a more highlight person, like a Sylvia Brown.

At TAM 5.5, Randi did say that he would welcome any high profile claims to test for the prize. Maybe this two step approach makes some sense?

Also, it was mentioned that there are many similar challenges offered by skeptic groups around the country and even around the world. What if the JREF became the "middle man" for all of these challenges and we POOLED all the money and used the popularity of the JREF to promote?

Just my $0.02.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Again, it seems that you haven't comprehended the full picture of what I was trying to say, and the reason I was suggesting it -
My suggestion was to have a 'new' eligibility criteria and to discard the old one - the idea being that using just the media requirement, many more people would make claims, but having to pass another challenge, would
drastically reduce the workload.
I suggested it as a way of continuing the challenge after the expiry date, rather than now

Your idea that "many more people would make claims" seems to have no foundation in the facts: In a decreased number of proper applications pouring in. For specific data, feel free to ask challenge@randi.org

People can make all the claims they want. The media profile most likely does not include supermarket tabloids. Hence, a serious outlet giving a platform and endorsement to an applicant hopefully will have conducted adequate research.



How did the requirement of a media profile affect your claim, Speed of Light?

Do you think the JREF Challenge served a purpose regarding your claim?

 

[Almo]

The fact that it has no effect on the likes of Sylvia Browne and the types of people it usually attracts are good enough reasons for me to recommend its discontinuation.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Voted discontinue, based on Mr Randi's general common sense index being above average.

That tipped it for me, since when I read the discussion and comment, I could see the advantage to having it remain, and to diverting resources elsewhere.

A note: whoever suggested the million would be used to educate "the masses" probably hasn't grasped yet how blasted expensive education is today. There are not a lot of masses going to be educated by a million. As some others have suggested, scholarships drawn from that pot could plant some seeds that would, in the long run, bear a mass of fruit.

DR

 

[jmercer]

As an almost previous challenger, I have to disagree here. That's actually quite an insulting statement.

I hate to see how such sweeping generalisations are regularly made, with no real research or evidence. There are other people like myself who came here to take the challenge, or to consider if what they believe fits in with the criteria. I took time to research and learn here before sending in my application, and luckily for me that meant my application never happened, because I realised what was actually happening.

I know there are other people here who started off believing in various aspects of the paranormal, and I don't know that so many would have been sent or attracted to this site if not for the challenge. Just because they don't all result in applications doesn't mean that the existence of the challenge isn't attracting people to the site in the first place. And just because you perceive applicants in a certain light, doesn't mean that everyone who is drawn here by the existence of the challenge is some kind of fruitcake.

Please think for a few moments about the wider implications of the challenge. It has been an effective 'bait' to draw people here for years, and has definitely contributed to some of the forum growth. Don't box people into one small category, because the truth of the matter is that intelligent people can be fooled, and can be deluded. The challenge does not only impact those who directly apply for it. It leads others to examine their beliefs, and learn where they are misunderstanding things, or where their knowledge has holes that they are then able to fill in with the assistance of many of our helpful members.

I am very sorry to see it go, because the existence of it helped me completely transform my life, and chnage my life direction 180 degrees. However, I understand why it is being done.

I can only hope that if, 3 years from now another person like myself is talking on another forum about their psychic abilities - as I was - that they would still be directed HERE, as I was. The history of the challenge will still exist, and hopefully the forum too, and links to other challenges that exist. This is an incredible resource for information about testing and cold reading and so on. I would hope that we can still change lives, and spread knowledge, whether the challenge exists or not.

Well said.

I've encountered people who have come here ready to prove themselves... who have instead done what you have. They were attracted by the challenge, but stayed for many reasons - most simply refused to change; some, however, did revisit their beliefs and became rational once more on the subject of woo.

To dismiss all those who come to challenge The JREF as "mentally ill" is sloppy, dismissive and uncritical thinking. I assume that devnull made his/her comment in haste rather than intentionally lumping everyone into the "mentally ill" category.

 

[waterkeet]

If Randi is discontinuing the challenge because he wants to use the money elsewhere, I believe there are insurance policies one can buy to cover the payout in a contest. That way he wouldn't have to keep the million dollars sitting unused, but would still be covered. This would be a pretty safe bet for an insurance company, based on the success of the challenge so far, and the probability of success in the future.

That said, I think it is critical for Randi to keep the challenge out there. It's the only real proof the world has that there is no such thing as the paranormal. And if people say they don't participate in the challenge because they're not in it for the money, Randi could add an offer to donate the million to the psychic's favorite charity.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

If Randi is discontinuing the challenge because he wants to use the money elsewhere, I believe there are insurance policies one can buy to cover the payout in a contest. That way he wouldn't have to keep the million dollars sitting unused, but would still be covered. This would be a pretty safe bet for an insurance company, based on the success of the challenge so far, and the probability of success in the future.

That said, I think it is critical for Randi to keep the challenge out there. It's the only real proof the world has that there is no such thing as the paranormal. And if people say they don't participate in the challenge because they're not in it for the money, Randi could add an offer to donate the million to the psychic's favorite charity.

The excuse "not being in it for the money" and its cousins e.g. "the money is tainted", "I don't sell my powers" etc. have been beaten to death by its proponents.

There are still many other challenges out there, not the least of which is this one.

At least one other institute for the "paranormal" - or "phenomenon not currently explicable by scientific criteria" - would be this one. A submission of evidence to them would net one the current jackpot. Financially and socially.

 

[thegreatsekptic]

I won the CHALLENGE...WOOWOO

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I won the CHALLENGE...WOOWOO

No, you did not.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Randi mentioned at TAM 5.5 that a big problem with the challenge was the overhead expended by the JREF in negotiating protocols and such with applicants. I think he really would like all that to be over with. The average applicant can't even clearly state what it is he/she can do. It's the wasted manpower.

There wasn't time to ask Randi at TAM 5.5, but I wonder of the JREF could cut a deal with Lloyds of London to underwrite the challenge. Additionally, I'd think a hundred thousand dollar challenge would have about the same draw as the million. I think if volunteers were recruited to handle the negotiations with claimants, there's a chance Randi's basic problems with the challenge could be solved and it could continue.

 

[rjh01]

As an almost previous challenger, I have to disagree here. That's actually quite an insulting statement.

I hate to see how such sweeping generalisations are regularly made, with no real research or evidence. There are other people like myself who came here to take the challenge, or to consider if what they believe fits in with the criteria. I took time to research and learn here before sending in my application, and luckily for me that meant my application never happened, because I realised what was actually happening.

I think you have misunderstood what devnull was trying to say. I think he was talking about the people who actually apply, not the people who are like you, chillzero.

Please someone take a look at the blog and tell me why these people apply (other than they have serious mental health problems)

 

[Speed of Light]

Again, it seems that you haven't comprehended the full picture of what I was trying to say, and the reason I was suggesting it -
My suggestion was to have a 'new' eligibility criteria and to discard the old one - the idea being that using just the media requirement, many more people would make claims, but having to pass another challenge, would
drastically reduce the workload.
I suggested it as a way of continuing the challenge after the expiry date, rather than now

Your idea that "many more people would make claims" seems to have no foundation in the facts: In a decreased number of proper applications pouring in. For specific data, feel free to ask challenge@randi.org

Compare
(a) Having to pass another challenge to be eligible for this one - Would reduce the number of claims to possibly Zero, but would theoretically keep the challenge open
(b) Needing only a media requirement - There are still claims

So it is obvious that many more people would make claims than the alternative condition (a)

How did the requirement of a media profile affect your claim, Speed of Light?

It didn't - It was not a requirement at that time

Do you think the JREF Challenge served a purpose regarding your claim?

Crikey! When making a claim, the last thing on my mind is how the challenge serves a purpose

 

[chillzero]

I think you have misunderstood what devnull was trying to say. I think he was talking about the people who actually apply, not the people who are like you, chillzero.

Please someone take a look at the blog and tell me why these people apply (other than they have serious mental health problems)

That's not how I read the post - and I re-read it and I still don't see that. Look:

The MDC should definitely go.

The big names are always going to dodge it, no matter what. They can come up with a million excuses.

At the moment the MDC only attracts the mentally ill. As such, I dont think its worth continuing.

I hope Randi closes it in a hail of "we ran it for decades and received nothing but talk" publicity though.

(bolding mine)

Big names will dodge it, and everyone else is mentally ill. Additionally, the last line completely ignores the fact that the challenge has had some effect, no matter how difficult it is to quantify.

I regularly see believers in various things being lumped together by members of this forum as insane or fraudulent, and skeptics of all people should recognise and acknowledge that life is not that black and white. The challenge was important, and to my mind it still is. However, as I said earlier, I understand why Randi has decided to end it. It is too much effort and there are areas that can be prioritised for the efforts of the small staff the JREF retain. Given extra resources I am sure this would be less of an issue.

However, I stand by my original points. Not every person attracted to the MDC is mentally ill. The actual completion of the challenge is not the only reason for its existence. To continually insist that the only people to apply are mentally unstable is insulting, not only to people like myself, but to other potential challengers, and indeed existing challengers that are even participating in the forum.

 

[Almo]

That said, I think it is critical for Randi to keep the challenge out there. It's the only real proof the world has that there is no such thing as the paranormal.

I disagree here; there isn't proof there is no paranormal. However, there is NO proof anywhere that there is. Sorry if that's a bit pedantic (well maybe a lot).

 

[chillzero]

I disagree here; there isn't proof there is no paranormal. However, there is NO proof anywhere that there is. Sorry if that's a bit pedantic (well maybe a lot).

I don't think it's pedantic - it's a good point I omitted to address earlier. There is a lot of evidence that leads many of us to the conclusion that none of these paranormal abilities exist. The MDC is only one of the places where that evidence is displayed and discussed.