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Militia question 1

Applause, kudos, praises and sing Halleluia! Thanks to GOD for all of you people who are not afraid to take Claus Flodin on. Claus Flodin will never admit that he lost this argument, but it's about time some people put the little wuss in his place.

You know what the funniest thing about this is? SHANEK! Anyone who would use LINUS as his avatar could not possibly be intimidating. The guy is the best thing that has ever happened to this board, in my opinion! You GO, Shanek!

Claus Flodin, you need to wake up and smell the gunsmoke.

1) People have a right to carry a gun if they choose to.

2) Psychics will continue to insist that they communicate with the
dead, and they will always have followers - evidence or not.

3) THERE IS NOTHING CLAUS FLODIN CAN DO TO CHANGE THE ABOVE FACTS.

So why don't you give it up, Claus? Get a LIFE, for GOD'S sake!

:rolleyes:
 
Mercutio said:
Then the rights are undefined without these other humans. A bit different from gravity.


Not really. You need two objects to demonstrate gravity as well.
 
Jocko said:
Not really. You need two objects to demonstrate gravity as well.
I am not certain as to your point. Any two objects work for this...but can my rights be violated by a tree? A rock? A planet? I understand that an animal may attack, and I may fight for my life, but is this seen as "exercising my right to defend myself" or merely defending myself? When we speak of rights violations, it is by other people or by governments-- which makes perfect sense, if these rights are a social construct.
 
CFLarsen said:
What do you meaure "rights" in?

You still here?

At the moment, I would measure them as the distance between people like me and people like you. Take that any way you like.

Now, what about those two little Danish embarrassments, to wit: your monarchy and your state religion? Rather than assault the rights of others, why not address the lack of those very rights in your own back yard? I know this must be difficult for you, Claus, but just pretend I'm Hitler and we'll be cooperating before you know it.
 
Jocko said:
You still here?

At the moment, I would measure them as the distance between people like me and people like you. Take that any way you like.

Now, what about those two little Danish embarrassments, to wit: your monarchy and your state religion? Rather than assault the rights of others, why not address the lack of those very rights in your own back yard? I know this must be difficult for you, Claus, but just pretend I'm Hitler and we'll be cooperating before you know it.

I asked you a simple question. What do you measure "rights" in?
 
Mercutio said:
I am not certain as to your point. Any two objects work for this...but can my rights be violated by a tree? A rock? A planet? I understand that an animal may attack, and I may fight for my life, but is this seen as "exercising my right to defend myself" or merely defending myself? When we speak of rights violations, it is by other people or by governments-- which makes perfect sense, if these rights are a social construct.

It seems you're applying somewhat arbitrary standards. I'm not equating gravity and human rights per se, except in that nothing exists in a vacuum... which was more or less your grounds for dismissing Shane's language example and rights in general.

The distinction you're failing to make here, I think, is the unique human characteristic of conscious intent. Your other examples operate outside that sphere, so self-determination is not a factor and you are therefore correct. But applied to humans, it's apples and oranges IMHO.

BTW, I see no real difference between rights as a social construct - in that they are distilled from the basic principles of society more ancient than language - and rights as divinely granted. Both ideas are rooted in the collective psyche, so the concern over what label to apply is really just so much wind in sails.

Claus' silly attempts to weigh and measure rights makes as much sense as asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; he thinks by asking a stupid question he can use the stupid answer to justify his pinheaded hypothesis. That's the real problem here.
 
CFLarsen said:
I asked you a simple question. What do you measure "rights" in?

And you were given a simple answer. Just not the one you were looking for, and now you are having trouble adjusting to reality. Some skeptic you are... remembering the hits and ignoring the misses. Odd, since there's 15 pages of misses now on this thread alone.

So what about that monarchy? What about that state church?
 
Jocko said:
It seems you're applying somewhat arbitrary standards. I'm not equating gravity and human rights per se, except in that nothing exists in a vacuum... which was more or less your grounds for dismissing Shane's language example and rights in general.
I am mostly just trying to understand where people are coming from. I am not a politically savvy person, so the questions I ask might well be inappropriate to the subject.

The distinction you're failing to make here, I think, is the unique human characteristic of conscious intent. Your other examples operate outside that sphere, so self-determination is not a factor and you are therefore correct. But applied to humans, it's apples and oranges IMHO.
Again, my perspective is a bit different. As a behaviorist, I find it clear that "conscious intent" is a circularly defined explanatory fiction (but that is a topic for another thread and time), so it is one of the assumptions that gets critically examined, rather than taken at face value.

BTW, I see no real difference between rights as a social construct - in that they are distilled from the basic principles of society more ancient than language - and rights as divinely granted. Both ideas are rooted in the collective psyche, so the concern over what label to apply is really just so much wind in sails.
In terms of how they function at any given time, I agree with you, there is no real difference (I think I said this, or tried to, in response to crimresearch above). The difference comes when we try to critically examine the things we call "rights". If they are a social construct, there is no reason not to re-examine them from time to time. If they are seen as either inherent or divinely gifted, they are viewed as set in stone. Now, if they are in fact set in stone, for whatever reason, then there is nothing wrong with viewing them as gifted, inherent, or socially constructed--in any case, a re-examination would not indicate any changes need to be made. But if they are not...if that which we consider a right one day (or one century) might be antiquated the next...then I personally think that the more flexible view would be more advantageous. If we are set in stone, we cannot adapt to new conditions.

Claus' silly attempts to weigh and measure rights makes as much sense as asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; he thinks by asking a stupid question he can use the stupid answer to justify his pinheaded hypothesis. That's the real problem here.
His technique is different than mine, his aim might be different, I don't know. But it seems to me that he is simply challenging the same assumptions I am challenging, to see if they can stand up. Frankly, I do not find that stupid at all. The things we believe, if true, should be able to stand critical examination. If we do not allow ourselves to critically examine even our bedrock assumptions...we may unintentionally build our house on sand.
 
Responding to Cynical's latest post:

The first fact is of incomplete. The full truth is that in the US context, people are currently having a right by law to keep firearms, with very few restrictions. It is of course not to be expected that Claus can change these laws into laws that has far more useful restrictions in it. But he can be one of many voices rasing important questions, such as whether the right to bear arms is one that should be allowed in today's society.

In that regard, I have two questions on my own:

1) How does restricting my rights to bear arms, especially handguns, actually infringe on my freedom?

The reason I'm pointing out handguns should be pretty clear: They are made for the purpouse of harming other human beings. A rifle or shotgun can be used for hunting, thus giving it another purpouse. But a handgun is only meant to be used against other humans. (I admit that some people will use handguns for using, but such people are, to put it mildly, unprofessional about it). I live in Norway, I'm not allowed to own a handgun until I'm 21 and have been a member of an approved target practice club. I can of course start a membership in the target practice club before that, I just can't own my own handgun. And I have no problems with this. Because this will help ensure that I have fully learned how to maintain a handgun, how to handle it, and not the least how to properly store it so that it can't easily be used, not to mention abused.

2) Will owning a gun actually make you safer?

Back to the US context, lots of people claim that they buy a gun for personal protection, usually keeping it near their own bed. But is this feeling of safety real, or just imagined?

Well, in most of the cases where such guns are used at all, the majority of uses will be either
a) An accidental misfiring. At best, this will lead to material damage, at worst, someone will get killed.
b) The gun is, along with other stuff, stolen during a burglary. Because most burglaries happen during daytime and without people being home. And as it is, it can even be used against the lawful owner of the gun during the burglary, which of course isn't the best thing to do.

And after this, in mere 2% of the cases where a gun bought for personal safety is used, it is used in accordance with the original intention: Stopping a burglar.

And if you want to prove me wrong, telling me that guns make people safer, then answer me this: What will make the insurance companies give you a discount for a house and inventory insurance? A burglary alarm, or a gun?


As for the second fact: You seemingly support to allow people taking advantage of other people by the means of lying, cheating, threatening, and generally being dishonest. Well, lying will of course always remain in the world. So will diseases. And so will death itself. Since death is inevitable, why are you even bothering to live, Cynical? Why not just look at that fact about death, accept it, and then just end it right away, since obviously nothing that you do ever matter, eh?

Well, here's the thing. I don't think you're as cynical as you claim to be. You're more of a pessimist, actually, though clearly not so extreme to commit suicide. That's right, a person can be a cynical optimist. Returning to the fact of the death, here's the difference between a cynical optimist and a cynical pessimist:
CO: Death is inevitable and there's no way of knowing what happens thereafter (although one can of course have one's own beliefs). But as long as we're here, we should do the best out of it, and then we'll die when we die.
CP: Death is inevitable, so why bother doing any good. Why bother trying to change anything? It all sucks anyway.

Of course, in the CO camp, one can of course have different ideas on how to make the best out of it. Some people will take advantage of the gullibility for their own gain (tobacco companies), while others will strive for a more altruistic approach. In the latter class, I think that Nelson Mandela is a fine example of a man that sure as hell was aware of the fact that apartheid was how things were in South Africa. But he strived to change that. And succeeded. And CF is the kind that knows pretty damn well that there are liars out there. He knows he can't possibly stop all of them. In fact, he probably can't stop them from lying as per se. But by revealing to the public that they are frauds will, even if CF's personal efforts are on a small scale, help other people see though the lies. And while people like him won't make a perfect world, they will make a better world. Which is obviously more than one can say about you, Cynical.
 
Jocko said:
And you were given a simple answer. Just not the one you were looking for, and now you are having trouble adjusting to reality. Some skeptic you are... remembering the hits and ignoring the misses. Odd, since there's 15 pages of misses now on this thread alone.

It's hardly an answer, is it? Oh, well, you can't compare rights and gravity, then.

Jocko said:
So what about that monarchy? What about that state church?

Like I said, open a new thread.
 
Mercutio said:
His technique is different than mine, his aim might be different, I don't know. But it seems to me that he is simply challenging the same assumptions I am challenging, to see if they can stand up. Frankly, I do not find that stupid at all. The things we believe, if true, should be able to stand critical examination. If we do not allow ourselves to critically examine even our bedrock assumptions...we may unintentionally build our house on sand.

Indeed. It does seem to me as there is a certain amount of panic involved, when it comes to justifying where these "rights" come from. Since nobody will come out and admit that God gave them their rights (their skeptical image would immediately be shattered, so that's a no-no), we are now looking at this ridiculous "natural law" thing.

Rights are social constructs, made by humans. I don't have a problem with it, but it is blatantly clear that some do. All of a sudden, the justification for their most precious thing has now vaporized.

Yup, I smell panic.
 
Hawk, you make some good points. And here is MY point: I don't give a rodent's rectum whether people own firearms or not. If they do, OK. If not, fine. Same thing with the poor misguided souls who believe in John Edward and his ilk. If they want to believe that JE - and others of his ilk - talk to dead folks, that's THEIR business, not mine. And not Claus Flodin's, either.

If firearms were outlawed in the US, it would be the RESPONSIBLE people who obeyed the law....the thugs would find a way to have a gun regardless of the law. So why outlaw them?
I own a handgun myself, that is MY business. And I'll be sheep-dipped if I'm going to turn mine in just to pacify the likes of Claus Flodin Larsen.:mad:

And if Shanek wants to rile Claus up by threatening to bring a gun to a meeting, more power to him! I think it's funny as hell.
 
Claus Flodin states that he smells a panic. I submit that it is his own panic that he smells.

Claus Flodin, go outside and get some fresh air. Get out of the house for awhile and do something, man! You seriously need to chill. Your paranoia is enough to bring on a panic attack.
 
Cynical said:
Has Claus Flodin Larsen ever solved a Rubix cube?

That's "Rubik's" Cube. Yes, more than 20 years ago.

16 seconds, once. Otherwise, around 29-34 seconds on average.
 
Mercutio said:
Suppose they do...which protects you, your right to bear arms, or your gun? I think it is the latter.

I say you're wrong. The right to bear arms protects me even if I choose not to carry a gun, since those who would act violently against me have no idea if I'm one of the ones who carries a gun or not.
 
Kodiak said:
If you start a separate thread, maybe he'll answer...

:nope:

Claus knows perfectly well that, even if I were to receive a reply by the moderators, it would be in the form of a PM and it would be improper for me to divulge it.

Which is probably what he's counting on, because then if I actually answered his question, he'd go all over the board saying, "Shane posted publicly information from a private PM!"

Claus is a woo-woo. The mods will do as they see fit.
 
Mercutio said:
I am not certain as to your point. Any two objects work for this...but can my rights be violated by a tree? A rock? A planet?

I am sure that, had these things the capacity, they would try--just like humans beings often try to violate the rights of others.


I understand that an animal may attack, and I may fight for my life, but is this seen as "exercising my right to defend myself" or merely defending myself?

Just a bit of extra language on your part. When I go to the store, I excersize my right to go to the store. When I purchase a firearm, I excersize my right to do so.

When we speak of rights violations, it is by other people or by governments-- which makes perfect sense, if these rights are a social construct.

I guess only because societies are constructed by humans who come with these rights pre-packaged.

Again, I think you are simply throwing words at a very simple concept.
 

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