Micro Spheres in world trade center dust solved.

Just to add to My post above for clarification, would the chlorination species in the Plastimet fire compared to WTC rubble pile chlorinated species make for good comparison to determine differences in each respective buildings? Such as materials used in each buildings construction and the contents within each building.
 
OK Frank now I have to disagree with you,;) sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.
However this does lead us to the nasty prospect that sulfidication, and Chlorination of steel might have occurred in the fires to a limited existent.

From the link I posted before,
Discussion: Bulk chemical and SEM microanalyses indicate that the cyclone deposits are
primarily an iron-aluminosilicate material. The bulk of the deposit is about 30 wt% SiO 2, 18 wt%
AI20 3, and 30 to 33 wt% Fe20 3. Titanium is also present between 3 and 4 weight percent.
The most likely cause of tbrmation of the deposits is the interaction of an iron compound with
aluminosilicates. The iron probably originated as pyrite or iron sulfides in the teed. The
aluminosilicates were probably present as clays in the teed. Iron in the form of FeS 2 is a strong
fluxing agent in a neutral or mildly reducing atmosphere. In oxidizing zones, FeS 2 will t),pically
produce SO 2 and form ferric oxide iFe203) at temperatures near 520°C. In reducing zones,
pyrite (FeS 2) forms a partial melt of ferrous sulfide (FeS) beginning at about 280°C and
continuing to about 600°C. Iron oxides may also be reduced to the ferrous state at 540 °C. At
lower temperatures, FeS may react with aluminosilicates to form a relatively low-melting ferrous
metasilicate or form a ferrous orthosilicate. The low melting point of these materials may also
enhance formation of molten spheres of ash particles.
Even though the iron in the deposit is now in the Fe+3 state, there is evidence that at the time
of deposit formation it was in the Fe+2 state. The atomic structure of the bulk of the deposit is
that of the spinel mineral maghemite ('/-Fe203). In nature, this is a rare mineral which forms by
the oxidation of the spinel mineral magnetite (Fe304, or Fe203+FeO). Formation of the spinel
structure requires the presence of iron in the +2 state. The iron was probably oxidized to the +3
state after deposit formation, resulting in the transformation to the maghemite structure. The
original presence of iron in the +2 state is also supported by the relatively high titanium content of
the deposit. The relatively high titanium content of the deposit suggests that it may have
originally been magnetite (formed at a low oxygen fugacity), but was later oxidized to maghemite
under higher oxygen fugacities.
Click to expand...

Now all I have to figure out is the other stuff that was in the air data and what the results of the experiments into the other micro spheres mean. Primarily the ones that include Zinc, as a major component.
Nice of Dr. Jones to finally admit that the Micro Spheres were to a large degree Oxygen. That indicates magnetite as I thought for a long time.
If Dr, Jones has found maghemite then the Nist fire tests were wrong, it indicates a high oxygen fire event that would only happen if the oxygen potentials are higher than what Nist stated. If that is true then the temperature of the fire was higher than indicated by Nist, that means that more fuels were consumed and that the rubble pile also had less carbon fuels for the duration of the burn in the rubble pile.
I just hope we have not traded one can of worms for another can of worms.
Well the next move is up to Dr. Jones, doubt it will be much of a surprise though, he will probably play up the Chips as proof of thermite only card he has left only move he can make.

Apollo20 said:
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.
Click to expand...
 
Apollo20 said:
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O... etc
Click to expand...

But this complexity can be avoided if they were already there. Apollo, could you summarize your current hypothesis, it seems you have a different look than before.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
OK Frank now I have to disagree with you,;) sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.
Click to expand...

There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.
 
Nutshell - lots of potential causes of said microspheres from the fires/collapses themselves.

I am gonna use Occam on this one, until Jones releases his data/samples for independent peer review/verification.

TAM:)
 
leftysergeant said:
There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.
Click to expand...

Does it really matter what I am finding out, is that fly ash would have naturally been in use at the site after 9/11/2001.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/recycling/fach02.cfm
It could have been incorperated into many of the products used in the buildings, that were not tested by Dr. Jones.
The machine shop probibly had a blast cabinet and small parts tumbler that would have used magnetite.

Also guess who was a leader in the usage of non hydrated fly ash in Asphalt products including Asphalt roofing.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE6D6103EF934A35751C1A96F948260
 
Iron microspheres: Si, K, Ca, and S

Apollo20 said:
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.
Click to expand...


It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.
 
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Max Photon said:
It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.
Click to expand...

That is why the spheres are to be expected, they are a product of low melt ferric compounds not of molten steel.
If they were a produce of molten steel they would be solid iron with out gassed carbon NOT Fe 304.
That is what I thought I was dealing with, such a particle could only occur at 1356c, at the least though oxidation of larger peaces producing out gassing of carbons.
The Critical temperature is the ignition point of steel in oxygen.
NOT the melting point.

Low melt Ferris are also why the floor pans might ignite along the electrical conduits.
 
Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)
 
More Greening/Jones E-mails

Steven,

I guess you didn't spend too much time reading my last e-mail! You know the part where I said:

"Thus we see that MSW ash typically contains up to 21 % Si, 8 % Ca, 8 % Fe, 1 % K and 5 % Al. Spherical particles up to 60 microns in diameter have also been reported in MSW incinerator ash formed when this type of waste material is burned at ~ 1000 deg C".

I also provided a link to a site that includes micrographs of microspheres in MSW ash. Did you check the link out? I guess not!

And as for coal fired boilers, a little research will show you that iron-rich microspheres are a well documented component of coal fly ash even though pulverized coal combustion temperatures are less than 1400 deg C. So you must accept that iron-rich microspheres do not need temperatures of 1538 deg C or higher to form in a coal/wood/paper combustion environment. If you cannot accept this fact there is no point in continuing this "debate"

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible, indeed probable, in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. The WTC fires produced lots of HCl from the combustion of PVC and oxides of sulfur were present from sources such as lead acid batteries, residual fuel oil and gypsum. In such a chemical soup, iron is transported as volatile di or tri-chlorides. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and eventually decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. At the very least it will be oxide coated, (probably with Fe3O4), and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. Pure mullite has a high m.p., ~ 1828 deg C, but small additions of K2O and/or CaO lower the m.p to below 1200 deg C. These complex Al/Si/K/Ca/O phases readily combine with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form iron-rich calcium/potassium aluminosilicate microspheres on cooling. Steven, as long as your microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

And on the topic of Si in commercial thermite, I was always under the impression that thermite is a mixture of finely divided iron oxide and aluminum with small amounts of accelerants/oxidizers based on K, Mn Sr or Ba compounds. You, on the other hand, claim this is NOT the case simply because you detected Si in your thermite combustion residues. Did you carry out your thermite tests in a sand pit? I ask this question not to be facetious; I simply wonder why anyone would add a silicon compound to thermite! Anyway, please provide a reference for your assertion that thermite usually contains Si - a manufacturer's analysis sheet would be helpful in this regard.....

One final comment:

May I recommend that you read two very interesting articles by Ken Kosanke et al.:

"Characterization of Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particles by SEM / EDS" in J. Forensic Sci. 48(3), 531 (2003)

"Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particle Analysis" in J. Forensic Sci. 51(2), 296 (2006).

These articles discuss the problem of identifying pyrotechnic reaction particles in the presence of soil or "dirt". On page 535 of the first article we read:

"Although a little too simplistic to make it a general rule, most common geologic particles will have silicon and calcium as the most prevalent X-ray peaks, whereas pyrotechnic material will generally have little, if any, of these elements present."

Then on page 299 of the second article we see two EDS spectra labelled as "Dirt" and "Dirt plus pyrotechnic reaction residues". The spectra are essentially identical with peaks, (in order of intensity), identified as: Si, Al, Fe, Ca, K, S.

We can debate this in the New Year, if you wish, but until you can show me that iron-rich microspheres COULD NOT be present in the WTC dust without "added" thermite, I think we won't have much to talk about!

Regards,

Frank


----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: High temps needed to form iron-rich spheres, meaning of ratios

Frank,

Your latest response ignores (again) my questions in (4.) below.

Further, you state: "Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite."

This statement is demonstrably incorrect, and indeed I demonstrated that Si is in fact a component of the sample of commercial thermite I tested -- both in the unreacted thermite sample (in with iron oxide chips) and in the spheres which formed from reacting the commercial thermite. This observation I made was and is important to the discussion. Experiments trump authoritative statements from you or anyone else.

I am leaning to suggest we take this discussion to a forum, such as PhysOrg, beginning January 2 (as I leave town tomorrow once more, and then will be with family for New Years' eve and day). This would also permit further posting of PPT slides, or EDS plots and SEM images, as I did some time ago on a forum of STJ911.org.

Let's think about this... Jan. 3 would be as soon as I could reasonably begin such a public discussion.

Steve

PS -- Carroll -- you will have to flesh out your question about PAC's and ferric chlorides, put into context of the WTC destruction, so I can fathom what you are asking when you say "What about PAC's..." etc.

Steven J

On Dec 24, 2007 9:16 AM, Steven Jones wrote:

"Only the very lowest melting substances form spheres." -- quoting directly from the figure caption of the spectrum you sent. I agree with THAT comment. The caption also mentions "metal foil" as part of the incinerated material, and I suspect melted aluminum would be present. NOT melted iron! Which leads again to the question I posed to you yesterday, based on the first spectrum you sent, which you seem to have thus far neglected:

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)

With regard to the lack of oxygen peaks in the older EDX machine you showed, I understand the difficulty these machines had -- and accept your explanation that an older EDX system was used for these spectra. The version I am using was installed very recently and is state-of-the-art. I will ask the lab director how good the oxygen percentages are in this new system.

Meanwhile, this new system does provide percentages of Fe, Al, Oxygen, etc.
So I have to ask -- what is the meaning of the ratios you provided, e.g.,

"Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

When you answer this, we can make more direct comparisons with the percentages provided by the new EDS system. (Take your time as I'm traveling to be with family for Christmas. Merry Christmas! btw, and I wish you a speedy recovery as a friend tells me you had surgery recently.)

Thanks for the conversation.

Steven

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

On Dec 24, 2007 7:39 AM, greening wrote:

Here is the incinerator ash spectrum. You will note that the caption reads "partly burned paper, wood, plastic, etc...

Frank
 
UPS batteries on WTC2 Aisle 81

BenBurch said:
Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)
Click to expand...


Oops. Too late. :flamed:


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)
 
Max Photon said:
Oops. Too late. :flamed:


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)
Click to expand...

Well, the building plan modifications to that floor which significantly strengthened the floor in that corner (and indeed you had to be in a corner to add the sort of weight they were adding) which were labeled "UPS" is the big clue. And just to be sure, somebody checked with United Parcel Service and they had no facility there. The rest of the floor was rented by a bank which had a data-center.
 
How Si could find its way into thermite-derived iron microspheres

Apollo20, (and Steven if you're reading this),


For the sake of discussion, let's say the iron microspheres WERE formed from thermite planted in the WTCs.

How did Si get in the iron microspheres?


I have put forth the notion that thermite was planted in some perimeter box columns at impact floors. I have describes several possible modes, ranging from just a little thermite to heat the bolts, to columns packed with thermite so that the (not-welded) bolt-access-hole covers would pop off from internal pressure upon ignition of the thermite, and the burning content would be spewed out onto piles of debris (thereby creating some of the long-lived, energetic "fires on piles of debris").

But why wouldn't the thermite burn through the bottom of the column?

Somewhere in the debris field that is my writings is a scenario in which the box columns were filled with sand or silica to the bottom of the lower bolt-access-hole (so there is about a foot of sand in the column). Thermite was then packed on top. When the thermite was ignited by All-Weather Max Photon-brand Thermite Fuse right near the bolt-access-hole, pressure popped off the cover, and the column became like a bulk thermite dispenser.

I have proposed that WTC2's 10-minute metal fire - which is located exactly at Column 301/81's bolt-access-hole - is in fact burning thermite being spewed onto the collected debris. (Note that the burn front is outside of the column, or right at the hole. Little thermite burns inside the column.)

The sand or silica source next to the burning thermite might account for:
  1. Thermite being able to be packed in columns, without melting the columns;
  2. Si being found in the iron microspheres (which formed as the thermite burned AND as the towers collapsed and dispersed molten material);
  3. No evidence of iron in the bottom of the columns (not that anyone looked).

Not TAM simple, but hey, even Apollo20 said the formation of iron microspheres (Now with Si ! ) below iron's melting point of 1536 C is a - Class? - that's right - a "complex process."


(I really have quite an imagination, don't I?)


Max
 
Did UPS banks create WTC2's Cold Spot?

Thanks Ben. I had seen Henry's fine piece before. I was wondering if there were other sources.

By the way, I'm always puzzled why some are happy to accept the presence of UPS banks, yet resistant to the idea that the UPS banks served as an obstacle to the jet's path, thereby helping to create the Cold Spot, with debris on either side.


Fortunately, NIST modeled this major source of mass ; )
 
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