Michelle Obama and the Tuskegee Experiments

[Tricky]

Her boyfriend died in a car accident where she was the driver. I never heard anyone accuse her of murder, though.quote]
Oh, I don't doubt that you could dig up some wacked-out extremist who called it "murder" on his blog, but I don't see any mainstream Democrats who do that. In fact, they have shown mostly very good taste in not mentioning it at all.

It was obviously a tragic accident.

I think Texas is spinning it a tad.

Our own, demure, sweet little Texas?? Spinning things!

Say it ain't so!

 

[Steve]

Also, we don't really know anything about this incident. Her involvement in the decision making could have been entirely advisory. I mean, what authority does a VP of Community Affairs have over what medical studies get approved? Seems a little out of scope for the position.

This is a very good point, and one that I think has been ignored in the rush to either justify or condemn a decision that would likely not have been made by Ms. Obama alone. As stated by BPSCG on his op, the article is an anecdote. I think it is likely that the final decision on this (or any) study would be a board decision based on a variety of medical and social inputs, one of which was Ms. Obama's.

 

[joobz]

So was Michelle Obama showing leadership in this case? I don't think so. And my opinion of it has nothig to do with the fact that her husband is a candidate for POTUS, and everything to do with her position in the hospital. How would any drugs get tested on blacks if all blacks in leadership positions shared her attitude? We can all agree this is an important issue, yes?

Do you have evidence to suggest that Michelle had opposed any and all clinical trials in her area? If so, then your point is valid. However, opposing a trial whose demographic was young black girls does not logically extrapolate to opposing all trails involving any black demographic.

 

[Tricky]

Do you have evidence to suggest that Michelle had opposed any and all clinical trials in her area? If so, then your point is valid. However, opposing a trial whose demographic was young black girls does not logically extrapolate to opposing all trails involving any black demographic.

I was wondering that too. While I know that Chicago contains many highly segregated areas, I wonder if M. Obama opposed testing in multi-racial schools where some of the subjects might be black.

 

[GreyICE]

So was Michelle Obama showing leadership in this case? I don't think so. And my opinion of it has nothig to do with the fact that her husband is a candidate for POTUS, and everything to do with her position in the hospital. How would any drugs get tested on blacks if all blacks in leadership positions shared her attitude? We can all agree this is an important issue, yes?

God, you read like a caricature. Since I'm decent with rhetoric, lets break down exactly what this post is doing.

So was Michelle Obama showing leadership in this case? I don't think so.

Ah, the rhetorical question. Intended to frame the debate in terms that the debater is comfortable with. In this case, Michelle Obama's role as executive director of community affairs was:

Obama, who was previously the executive director for community affairs at the Hospitals, will be responsible for all programs and initiatives that involve the relationship between the Hospitals and the community.

http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2005/20050509-obama.html

It wasn't her job to show leadership in negotiating new matters of handling vaccine trials. It was her job to aid relations between the community and the hospital. If she, in her role, thought that the experiment would damage relations, it was her job to report that. Not to necessarily determine whether the drug was safe for human trials, etc. So she made a professional judgment that it would, and probably collected a decent amount of evidence for this (we have to assume that people don't cancel trials on someone's say-so) and reported the results.

But WildCat knows he can't win a debate framed in those terms. So he rhetorically frames it into a debate about leadership. Leadership, of course, being an ambiguous term that anyone could debate for hours without reaching any sort of conclusion.

What is indisputable is she did her job. So, rhetorical deception part one has been noted.

And my opinion of it has nothig to do with the fact that her husband is a candidate for POTUS, and everything to do with her position in the hospital.

Hilarious reframing of the debate. Frankly, we would have heard nothing about this if her husband wasn't a candidate for president. It would have never even showed up on the radar screen. Obviously while the exact issue has nothing to do with her husband's suitability for the presidency, the greater issue does. Otherwise, why wouldn't WildCat say "Her actions don't reflect in any way upon her husband?" That's a disavowal of any connection. No, instead he dismisses any connection with her husband's candidacy, while at the same time reinforcing the connection in reader's minds. Classic deceptive tactic, and the second one used.

How would any drugs get tested on blacks if all blacks in leadership positions shared her attitude? We can all agree this is an important issue, yes?

Ah, the usual alarmist stuff. We have to convince the people that this is a real issue. We can't let it fall off the radar, so we have to create some incredibly negative consequence and tie it to this issue.

In this case, WildCat uses slippery slope. A very frequently used tactic in these sorts of situations. "If we have gay marriage, what's stopping anyone from marrying their dog? Or a dead body? Or polygamy?" The issue is staple gunned to a broader, horrible consequence with no respect for any other factors that make every situation unique.

In this case, the slippery slope leads to black people never getting any medicine ever again if we elect Obama - at least indirectly. Note how he carefully followed the POTUS sentence with this horrible consequence. He didn't link Michelle Obama's actions to this horrible consequence in his reader's heads, he linked Obama's candidacy.

So two deceptive techniques, and one slippery slope to oblivion.

This people, is how conservative fear-mongering works. Exactly like this. Deception, clever rhetoric, and slippery slopes. This is how it wins recruits - it is very convincing, if you don't realize the rhetorical techniques used.

Of course by deconstructing them they become painfully obvious, and once painfully obvious, their truly deceptive nature is revealed. An entire ideology whose arguments are founded on deception. I'd say it would be unique, but frankly that would be a huge insult to the Catholic Church, who perfected this garbage centuries ago.

 

[Texas]

The fact that Nancy used astrology to set Ronnie's schedule was not public at the time excuses it? On a skeptics board? You really have to be kidding me.

For dog's sake. I wasn't excusing a damned thing I was talking about first ladies that were openly activist in shaping policy. Get over yourself.

 

[Texas]

I was wondering that too. While I know that Chicago contains many highly segregated areas, I wonder if M. Obama opposed testing in multi-racial schools where some of the subjects might be black.

Well to be fair the testing of that vaccine set off a firestorm in many parts of the country simply because it targeted teenagers black AND white. As to Mrs. Obama, I do think she adheres to the views of Trinity church far more than Obama who I see as just a politician that needed church cred for his political career. So far she has shown that her mouth is a deadly weapon pointed right at Obama's candidacy if she or someone else can't get it under control.

 

[Boo]

Perhaps I am a bit naive; the inference I took from her objection and stopping the study wasn't that the study shouldn't be done. Instead that it needed review and the researchers should adjust how it was being presented. Michele Obama was right to question how the study was being presented in the context of her job and where she works. I doubt, that as the mother of two young girls, she objected to the study per se, and was looking to have the researchers change the "white doctors and young black girls" to a more racially diverse mix of physicians and subjects.

There are still some parts of the US, including Memphis and the south-side of Chicago, where the black community is very quick to take offense to any perceived bias. None may be intended or even present but there is an automatic presumption that it exists. It is a bunker mentality that has held on for the last 40 years and feeds on the cycle of grinding poverty and welfare culture that is the reality in those cities.


Has anyone found whether the study was ever done elsewhere after Michele Obama rejected it or if it proceeded after altering the racial balance of researchers and subjects?



Boo

 

[Ysidro]

Her boyfriend died in a car accident where she was the driver. I never heard anyone accuse her of murder, though. I think Texas is spinning it a tad.

I dunno how you'd murder someone with a car crash while you're in the car too and guarantee your survival either. Unless you're the cheerleader on Heroes.

Hmm, wasn't she from TEXAS?????

 

[BenBurch]

I dunno how you'd murder someone with a car crash while you're in the car too and guarantee your survival either. Unless you're the cheerleader on Heroes.

Hmm, wasn't she from TEXAS?????

She wasn't in the same car.

It was a collision at an intersection.

He was no longer her boyfriend at the time.

Hence the rumors.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I dunno how you'd murder someone with a car crash while you're in the car too and guarantee your survival either. Unless you're the cheerleader on Heroes.

Hmm, wasn't she from TEXAS?????

The accusation is that she was drunk. Many people consider a death caused by a drunk driver murder.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Curious that a thread concerning another instance of the Obama family's racism being turned into a thread about Bush.

 

[GreyICE]

I dunno how you'd murder someone with a car crash while you're in the car too and guarantee your survival either. Unless you're the cheerleader on Heroes.

Hmm, wasn't she from TEXAS?????

Oh assassination by vehicle is one of the best and most untraceable methods. Put bluntly, if you hit something head on, and it's perpendicular to you, you are virtually guaranteed to survive, whereas they're virtually guaranteed to die. So yeah, if you did want to kill someone and get away with it, a car is pretty much the ultimate way to do it.

 

[Tricky]

Oh assassination by vehicle is one of the best and most untraceable methods. Put bluntly, if you hit something head on, and it's perpendicular to you, you are virtually guaranteed to survive, whereas they're virtually guaranteed to die. So yeah, if you did want to kill someone and get away with it, a car is pretty much the ultimate way to do it.

Yeah, but you'd have to be a pretty good driver to get the timing perfect for something like that. Laura was a young girl, hardly a stunt driver. And if it was true that she was drunk (which wouldn't be surprising) then that would make a deliberate hit that much harder.

I am sastisfied that it was an accident.

 

[BenBurch]

Yeah, but you'd have to be a pretty good driver to get the timing perfect for something like that. Laura was a young girl, hardly a stunt driver. And if it was true that she was drunk (which wouldn't be surprising) then that would make a deliberate hit that much harder.

I am sastisfied that it was an accident.

I am too, but I can also understand why somebody might raise an eyebrow.

But really, I feel sorry for Laura Bush; I wouldn't want to be married to *that*.

 

[boloboffin]

Yeah, but you'd have to be a pretty good driver to get the timing perfect for something like that. Laura was a young girl, hardly a stunt driver. And if it was true that she was drunk (which wouldn't be surprising) then that would make a deliberate hit that much harder.

I am sastisfied that it was an accident.

Being drunk is not a mitigating factor in an automobile accident which results in someone's death.

I don't know that she was drunk, however. I don't know a lot of circumstances about this. However, I will say that there was no intent or malice behind her actions. Laura Bush was devastated by this event.

 

[GreyICE]

Yeah, but you'd have to be a pretty good driver to get the timing perfect for something like that. Laura was a young girl, hardly a stunt driver. And if it was true that she was drunk (which wouldn't be surprising) then that would make a deliberate hit that much harder.

I am sastisfied that it was an accident.

Oh I'd agree that it was an accident. She's not a trained driver, it's a little bit of a trick to pull off (It's a harder weapon to use than a rifle), and there's absolutely no evidence she did. It's impossible to sanely conclude that she killed him deliberately.

 

[Ysidro]

She wasn't in the same car.

It was a collision at an intersection.

He was no longer her boyfriend at the time.

Hence the rumors.

Ah, I wasn't aware of seperate vehicles. Still, seems like a silly rumor. When did people start gossiping about this one? Apparently I was asleep that day.

 

[BenBurch]

Ah, I wasn't aware of seperate vehicles. Still, seems like a silly rumor. When did people start gossiping about this one? Apparently I was asleep that day.

Well over ten years ago.

 

[Upchurch]

This has been a weird sort of tangent, but FWIW.