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Michele Bachmann, the Tea Party's Woman in Washington...

SS will be taking in more money then it's giving out for another 20 years or so. SS today is more then solvent. Deal with it. Yes, without changes there will be issues but now to say it's broke is simply a lie. Much like the ponzi allegations.

Have Republicans completely abandon the ability to debate honestly?
 
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That would be a valid point if excess SSI revenues were actually being saved. They are not. They are spent immediately on general fund spending.

Do you believe we should be converting Social Security revenues to cash and stashing them in a big building just like Scrooge McDuckWP? :rolleyes:
 
... is apparently physically incapable of telling the truth

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/sep/21/bachmann-and-truth-o-meter-collected-works/

This is the woman who founded the 'Congressional Tea Party Caucus'.

I don't know about y'all, but to me it does not speak well of a political movement when the person anointed as its champion in the halls of Congress is, by all appearances, a pathological liar.
This makes her different from any other politician in what way?
 
SS will be taking in more money then it's giving out for another 20 years or so. SS today is more then solvent. Deal with it. Yes, without changes there will be issues but now to say it's broke is simply a lie. Much like the ponzi allegations.

Have Republicans completely abandon the ability to debate honestly?

Trustees Report Summary - Status of the Social Security and Medicare Programs
Social Security expenditures are expected to exceed tax receipts this year for the first time since 1983. The projected deficit of $41 billion this year (excluding interest income) is attributable to the recession and to an expected $25 billion downward adjustment to 2010 income that corrects for excess payroll tax revenue credited to the trust funds in earlier years. This deficit is expected to shrink substantially for 2011 and to return to small surpluses for years 2012-2014 due to the improving economy. After 2014 deficits are expected to grow rapidly as the baby boom generation’s retirement causes the number of beneficiaries to grow substantially more rapidly than the number of covered workers.

Have posters named DavidJames completely abandoned the ability to consider the possibility that they might actually be wrong?
 
Do you believe we should be converting Social Security revenues to cash and stashing them in a big building just like Scrooge McDuckWP? :rolleyes:

If we want to be able to actually say (without irony) that there is such a thing as a Social Security Trust Fund.
 
You missed the part where I said "barely true" didn't you?
I'm just a computer programmer, where the only options available to me are TRUE or FALSE, so please explain to me how "barely true" is not the same as "true".

There is such a thing as a half-truth and less than that afterall. I already said that I'm more than willing to chalk this one example up to a poor judgment call. And I'm unwilling to conclude that Politifact is an unreliable fact-checker on the basis of one iffy judgment call.

I'll grant that I haven't seen much of the work of Politifact, but what I've seen has not inspired confidence. Not because I disagree, but because they seem to be substantially blurring the line between fact and opinion. A site like factcheck.org (or snopes.com) will often use terms like "undetermined" or "indeterminate" for those things that have both evidence for and against. In addition, they try (as much as possible) to limit themselves to an actual determination of fact, keeping opinion out as much as possible. If there are varying opinions, then likely it isn't a matter of objective fact.

For instance, the Rand Paul statement about federal employee compensation that they branded a lie came from a speech where Rand Paul was making the point that federal employees have substantially higher compensation than private employees do (the broader truth he was trying to point out) and to do so he gave specific average total compensation numbers for private and federal employees(the specific truth). Politifact labelled it as a lie, not because it wasn't actually true, but because some people might misunderstand the statement. If a site like snopes.com or factcheck.org did the piece, they would likely have said something alone of lines of:

VERDICT
explanation of context in which the statement was made
explanation of difference between salary and total compensation
explanation of actual numbers for federal and private employees for BOTH total compensation and for salary only
explanation for how well the specific statement in question, (and the verdict about the factuality) supported the broader point of the speaker

Notice that the Politifact article didn't come close to that. The word "Fact" has a very specific meaning, and while the word "opinion" is not an antonym of the word "fact", it surely isn't a synonym either.

So, the writer of the article should be expected to withhold his/her opinion on a complicated issue because...?

No need to withhold his/her opinion (outside of the fact checking article itself - opinion has no place in a fact check article), but the opinion of the writer has no bearing on whether a fact is true or not. That's kindof the definition of the word "fact".

As Lurker pointed out, Bachman is leaving the impression that Social Security is kaput. The numbers that you provide show that they are, indeed, borrowing. However, this is such a minuscule amount that we shouldn't even be concerned with it. Especially when the numbers you provided show that total assets have grown since January 2009. This hardly backs up Bachman's claim that Social Security is "out of money".

I'm focusing here on the "total assets have grown since January 2009" part. That is Not even wrongWP for the simple reason that you cannot divide by zero. There are no assets in the Social Security Trust Fund. None. There are IOUs that can be redeemed at the US Treasury by the Social Security Trust Fund for a net governmental gain of exactly 0 dollars. The treasury, in cashing in those IOUs, will write itself a check.

Go ahead, write yourself an IOU for $50,000,000, redeem that IOU (from yourself!) by then writing yourself a check (from your own bank account) for $50,000,000. Have you come out ahead?
 
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A minor correction. Drawing from an accumulated surplus isn't normally called borrowing.

If you want to continue the fiction that you can both spend specific assets AND save them, you have to use some sleight of hand to do so.

The SSI admin recieves SSI tax revenues. Any excess for the month is then loaned to the general fund and spent. This way, it both exists as imaginary savings AND can be spent now.

It's a perfect technique for saving...I would strongly advise it myself. Each month, take $1000 of your salary and put it in a shoebox under your bed. You want to both spend the money AND save it, so take the $1000 out of the shoebox and replace with an IOU to yourself for $1000. Spend the money on coke and hookers. At the end of the year, you have spent $12,000 on coke and hookers AND have $12,000 in IOUs to redeem to yourself.

It's the type of thing that only be thought up by someone exceedingly brilliant like a Harvard grad or an underwear gnome.
 
If you want to continue the fiction that you can both spend specific assets AND save them, you have to use some sleight of hand to do so.

The SSI admin recieves SSI tax revenues. Any excess for the month is then loaned to the general fund and spent. This way, it both exists as imaginary savings AND can be spent now.

It's a perfect technique for saving...I would strongly advise it myself. Each month, take $1000 of your salary and put it in a shoebox under your bed. You want to both spend the money AND save it, so take the $1000 out of the shoebox and replace with an IOU to yourself for $1000. Spend the money on coke and hookers. At the end of the year, you have spent $12,000 on coke and hookers AND have $12,000 in IOUs to redeem to yourself.

It's the type of thing that only be thought up by someone exceedingly brilliant like a Harvard grad or an underwear gnome.

Next time you take an economics class, find a teacher who doesn't insist you pay in silver or gold.
 
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Next time you take an economics class, find a teacher who doesn't insist you pay in silver or gold.

Has the US Treasury taken over the role of the Fed now? Did I miss the memo?

I'm not sure what else your response means other than a reference to the ability of the Fed to print money at whim. Firstly, that's the Fed, not the US Treasury. Secondly, it has a cost.
 
If you want to continue the fiction that you can both spend specific assets AND save them, you have to use some sleight of hand to do so.

The SSI admin recieves SSI tax revenues. Any excess for the month is then loaned to the general fund and spent. This way, it both exists as imaginary savings AND can be spent now.

It's a perfect technique for saving...I would strongly advise it myself. Each month, take $1000 of your salary and put it in a shoebox under your bed. You want to both spend the money AND save it, so take the $1000 out of the shoebox and replace with an IOU to yourself for $1000. Spend the money on coke and hookers. At the end of the year, you have spent $12,000 on coke and hookers AND have $12,000 in IOUs to redeem to yourself.

It's the type of thing that only be thought up by someone exceedingly brilliant like a Harvard grad or an underwear gnome.

Alas, the problem with your analogy is the US IOU is backed by the Full Faith and Credit of the US govt. If you think that is shaky you better go tell the Chinese your alarming theory.

The US borrows money all the time. TBills abound. Why you want to treat a T-Bill that the SS Admin possesses any differently than one that China holds or that recent retiree Joe Blow holds is the mystery to me. What makes the SS Tbills so special that they deserve their own definition? They look exactly the same to me.
 
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Alas, the problem with your analogy is the US IOU is backed by the Full Faith and Credit of the US govt. If you think that is shaky you better go tell the Chinese your alarming theory.

The US borrows money all the time. TBills abound. Why you want to treat a T-Bill that the SS Admin possesses any differently than one that China holds or that recent retiree Joe Blow holds is the mystery to me. What makes the SS Tbills so special that they deserve their own definition? They look exactly the same to me.

The analogy given earlier doesn't really fit. Treasury bills have a value established by a market, an IOU from a JREF poster does not.
 

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