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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

John Jones said:
Got any evidence that they only brewed one batch in that fermenter?

All species of grain produce multiple harvests.

What's a grain cello? If you mean grain cellar, they've only dug-up 10% of the site. And what's to stop them from storing grain in baskets?
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No. Someone else postulated they only had to collect for one yearly tithe. I believe that alcohol is a product consumed daily, by those who know how to make it. Its addictive, and those who take the time to learn how to produce it, don't usually go without.

Yes, but not all regions have long growing seasons.

Cellar in down, "silos" stack grain. Baskets? Really? Open baskets holding raw grain would result in much loss due to birds, mice, spillage and spoilage.
 
John Jones said:
You may not have noticed, but your frequent bare assertions don't carry a lot of weight. Evidence would do nicely.
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I presented my evidence.

I presented the amount of grain it takes to produce "beer" and I presented a recipe from ancient egypt.

A 40 gallon fermenter = cultivated grain.
 
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King of the Americas said:
No. Someone else postulated they only had to collect for one yearly tithe. I believe that alcohol is a product consumed daily, by those who know how to make it. Its addictive, and those who take the time to learn how to produce it, don't usually go without.

Yes, but not all regions have long growing seasons.

Cellar in down, "silos" stack grain. Baskets? Really? Open baskets holding raw grain would result in much loss due to birds, mice, spillage and spoilage.
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I didn't say anything about open baskets. I thought you might bring up the vermin issue. Who says they didn't lose grain to them? Besides, mice can get in cellars too.

If they were making a lot of beer, the grain wouldn't be around long anyway.
 
King of the Americas said:
"...The feature is open to the west. A lack of evidence for burning would speak against its function as an oven. Excavations within the building yielded numerous finds, including chipped stone and animal bone remains. A large stone vessel was found in-situ on the floor of the building."

A lack of evidence for burning?

Large stone vessels situation in the middle of a floor in a room is USUALLY used for what in other ancient building structures?

Good god, it is like they are intentionally ignoring evidence of domestication!
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A stone vessel doesn't mean burning. If you had ever seen an archaeological site you would know that any burning leaves obvious tell tale signs. Don't you ever watch Time Team?
 
The earliest beer recipes I can find use grain malt, bread, as well as honey and dates. This would reduce the requirement for additional whole, wild grain from Gobekli tepe proper.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A stone vessel doesn't mean burning. If you had ever seen an archaeological site you would know that any burning leaves obvious tell tale signs. Don't you ever watch Time Team?
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Sounds like a subterranean oven to me...

Put in a cooking vessel, cover with leaves, then pile on hot rocks.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
One recipe from one location at one time. Do you think this is the only beer recipe that was ever used all over the world through history?

Ancient Egypt is still relatively modern.
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And we know, from Ancient Egyptian documents, that they had multiple types of beer, of varying strength, consumed in different situations.

Exactly like the medieval beers I mentioned earlier.

Picking out the one strong beer someone had recreated and proclaiming that's what they drank, is a bit like grabbing a bottle of Futtocks Old Bastard (10% ABV) and claiming that's the beer everyone drinks these days.
 
John Jones said:
The earliest beer recipes I can find use grain malt, bread, as well as honey and dates. This would reduce the requirement for additional whole, wild grain from Gobekli tepe proper.
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So, they were beekeepers and date farmers too...?

Are you not getting it is size of the fermenter, and its regular use, that requires the abundant amount of grain, honey, or fruit required?

I'd like to encourage each of you to watch a couple of youtube videos about forrest forager eating, or open plains wild grain collection.

Nature isn't an endless open 24-hours a day bounty, without fierce competitors.

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*In order to continuously supply ONE 40 gallon primary fermenter, you'd have to manage your foraging, so that you didn't totally clean out an area, forcing you to walk longer distances.

Consider how abundant, 'wild' wheat would have to have been per square foot? They had 3-5 grains per plant, requiring say 3 square inches...the dispersion of wild grain fields is what? Maybe one plant per square foot? At the deer lease, in places we used to have feeder patches but have abandon, there are still traces of the domestic wheat we planted, but it wouldn't amount to more 10% of the previous plot.

I find it hard to believe that ancient wild wheat was a so abundant that it would not need to be cultivated by someone to produce raw materials for multiple 40 gallons of beer fermenting setups.
 
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Tolls said:
And we know, from Ancient Egyptian documents, that they had multiple types of beer, of varying strength, consumed in different situations.

Exactly like the medieval beers I mentioned earlier.

Picking out the one strong beer someone had recreated and proclaiming that's what they drank, is a bit like grabbing a bottle of Futtocks Old Bastard (10% ABV) and claiming that's the beer everyone drinks these days.
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Right. My original assertion was that historically speaking humans drink alcohol between 5-15% in strength.

The egyptian recipe produces a beer with 10%.

*Your historical evidence isn't evidence. Got it.
 
King of the Americas said:
Right. My original assertion was that historically speaking humans drink alcohol between 5-15% in strength.
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Which I pointed out was wrong.

The most commonly drunk medieval beers were well under 5%.
And many were barely alcoholic (the ones usually drunk by labourers)...more of an energy drink.

The Egyptian texts referring to different styles of beer echo this.
After all, you don't want your labour force pissed the entire time.
 
Most draught ales (bitters and milds) drunk in pubs in the UK are between 3.8 and 4.1
 
In areas of plenty hunter gatherers can and do form permanent settlements. See for instance the Pacific Northwest.
 
King of the Americas said:
In order to continuously supply ONE 40 gallon primary fermenter, you'd have to manage your foraging, so that you didn't totally clean out an area, forcing you to walk longer distances.
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This multiplicity of large fermenters exists only in your mind, not in reality. It is a figment of your brain.

Anyway even if these fermenters existed in reality; in what way do they prove a global advanced technology? Were they electrically heated and computer controlled? At least we know there is no evidence that the grain involved was genetically engineered!
 
Whatever evidence is given the counter claim seems to be that it is all later stuff from later occupiers. The real old stuff from the lost civilization has been washed away or lost and anything found now is from this later, lesser occupation.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Whatever evidence is given the counter claim seems to be that it is all later stuff from later occupiers. The real old stuff from the lost civilization has been washed away or lost and anything found now is from a later, lesser occupation.
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And just because none of the archeological research has found things that would confirm KotA's assertions, doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist and won't be found at some point in the future.

Which of course you could say about just any assertion lacking evidence. The evidence exists, it just hasn't been found yet.
 
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