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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Tolls said:
I assume it's those square things he's referring to.
Because, you know, square things (with tracks leading to them) are obviously pyramids.
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What do you see here?

Lat 29°40'0.55"S

Long 138°22'17.41"E

See the square, and the really straight line headed south...? Follow it.

See the dried lake, and the other square on the shore?

I see no signs of modern habitation...but that looks like an old road...
 
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John Jones said:
That seems like a lot, but is that much wild grain not available to them? Did they brew whole 40 gallons at at one time?
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That is a poop-ton of grain, for ONE fermenter, they found many, AND ovens for bread. These were, IN MY OPINION< some grain producing and consuming hombres.

And Yes, you want to fill up your primary fermenter, mostly. You want to A.) Maximize output (making alcohol is a month long endeavor), and B.) Insure continued fermentation (Oxygen can kill weak yeasts and disrupt fermentation).
 
Tolls said:
Do you know how much is needed to produce the sort of beer produced back then?
I don't.
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Beer is beer. Wine is wine.

Recipes vary, very much, or hold to traditional brews, but the human pallet has stayed with a spectrum since brewing began. Older recipes from greek and roman wineries and breweries are not so different, and many have been recreated for modern consumption to great success.

We like a beer or wine that has between 5-15% alcohol by volume. That median takes the afore mentioned grain. Wine would be another endeavor altogether, but I don't think they've found evidence of 'wine' yet.
 
King of the Americas said:
What do you see here?

Lat 29°40'0.55"S

Long 138°22'17.41"E

See the square, and the really straight line headed south...? Follow it.

See the dried lake, and the other square on the shore?

I see no signs of modern habitation...but that looks like an old road...
Click to expand...

Oh for god's sake.
That's an old track. You can tell, as it joins the current (marked on Google) track. The outback's riddled with them.

Why can't you just link to the exact location?
For example, this is the first riverbed crossing of that old track south of the coords you gave above.

If nothing else it will save us having to guess what feature you are thinking is a pyramid.

By the way, since you've identified the reservoir there, which indicated people pass through this area occasionally, don't you think someone might have spotted a pyramid?
 
You don't mean this thing do you?

It's a square on the ground, a matter of 50 metres from a road. Maybe not a main road, but it must have had some traffic to get itself marked on Google. If that's a pyramid I think we would have had a photo by now.
 
Tolls said:
Oh for god's sake.
That's an old track. You can tell, as it joins the current (marked on Google) track. The outback's riddled with them.

Why can't you just link to the exact location?
For example, this is the first riverbed crossing of that old track south of the coords you gave above.

If nothing else it will save us having to guess what feature you are thinking is a pyramid.

By the way, since you've identified the reservoir there, which indicated people pass through this area occasionally, don't you think someone might have spotted a pyramid?
Click to expand...

Start at the water hole, at that square...my google earth doesn't make that path as a road, and I see no modern tire tracks...
 
King of the Americas said:
That is a poop-ton of grain, for ONE fermenter, they found many, AND ovens for bread. These were, IN MY OPINION some grain producing and consuming hombres.

And Yes, you want to fill up your primary fermenter, mostly. You want to A.) Maximize output (making alcohol is a month long endeavor), and B.) Insure continued fermentation (Oxygen can kill weak yeasts and disrupt fermentation).
Click to expand...

I've made beer. I doubt your figures. So you don't know they had no access to that amount of wild grain.
 
Tolls said:
You don't mean this thing do you?

It's a square on the ground, a matter of 50 metres from a road. Maybe not a main road, but it must have had some traffic to get itself marked on Google. If that's a pyramid I think we would have had a photo by now.
Click to expand...

No, No. I am saying that is an old road and a ruin of some kind, NOT a pyramid. That just looks like an ancient road connecting two ruins.

The first two I posted however, look like they have steps...
 
John Jones said:
That seems like a lot, but is that much wild grain not available to them? Did they brew whole 40 gallons at at one time?
Click to expand...

If you were a brewer, you'd know that brewers adopt a fermenter that will accept 'common' yields for the crop or carb-source for your mash. I went from a 6 gallon to a 14 gallon primary fermenter, because my vineyard produced about 200 lbs of fruit.

Most home brewers stay in this range, because brew supply companies sell kits this size.

I'd bet that the GT brewers had 40 gallon fermenters because grain came in 100 lb sacks, because that is the maximum amount one man can carry on a shoulder.
 
King of the Americas said:
I refuse to accept your lack of evidence as evidence in return.

Objection: Speculation
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No KOTA we have lots of evidence it is you who deny it exists.

This is clear indication you are either intellectually untruthful or an inept troll.

Have fun wasting people's time.
 
King of the Americas said:
The first male gene found and mapped spread out from the middle east up into Eurasia, and down into parts of Africa. This single lone ancestor was more active than Ghangis Khan...or we were cloned, and the first "Adam" was actually many individuals with the same genes...who really knows, this was millennia ago...
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Genes spread through populations. Go back far enough and there are two interesting facts:
1. If someone is the ancestor of anyone alive today, they are the ancestor of everyone alive today.
2. Maybe 40% of people alive at that time fall into the latter category.

You don't have to be as active as Ghengis Khan to be the ancestor of all living humans. You just need time for your descendants' genes to spread through the gene pool.
 
King of the Americas said:
Beer is beer.

We like a beer or wine that has between 5-15% alcohol by volume. That median takes the afore mentioned grain. Wine would be another endeavor altogether, but I don't think they've found evidence of 'wine' yet.
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Except an awful lot of beer (most of that consumed) in medieval times (for example) was well under 5%. Barely even alcoholic.

King of the Americas said:
I'd bet that the GT brewers had 40 gallon fermenters because grain came in 100 lb sacks, because that is the maximum amount one man can carry on a shoulder.
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Considering a lot of the earliest recipes we have involve baking a loaf, I'm not sure why the size of a sack would have any bearing.
Indeed, do you have any sacks as an example from GT?
Otherwise I would suggest you are simply making stuff up.

King of the Americas said:
Start at the water hole, at that square...my google earth doesn't make that path as a road, and I see no modern tire tracks...
Click to expand...

I already said that track was prior to the current road a couple of hundred metres to the West, which is marked.
And how on earth would you expect to see tyre tracks? I doubt it's been used in decades.

Actually, looking at it, that is the road Google is referring to. Their markings are out, as there is no sign of a track underneath the white road overlay.

So, that square is the ruins?
It could be bloody anything!
It's also (if I'm correct, and I think I am) right next to this track that is used to go to that reservoir. Hardly something that's going to be missed.
 
Tolls said:
Except an awful lot of beer (most of that consumed) in medieval times (for example) was well under 5%. Barely even alcoholic.



Considering a lot of the earliest recipes we have involve baking a loaf, I'm not sure why the size of a sack would have any bearing.
Indeed, do you have any sacks as an example from GT?
Otherwise I would suggest you are simply making stuff up.



I already said that track was prior to the current road a couple of hundred metres to the West, which is marked.
And how on earth would you expect to see tyre tracks? I doubt it's been used in decades.

Actually, looking at it, that is the road Google is referring to. Their markings are out, as there is no sign of a track underneath the white road overlay.

So, that square is the ruins?
It could be bloody anything!
It's also (if I'm correct, and I think I am) right next to this track that is used to go to that reservoir. Hardly something that's going to be missed.
Click to expand...

You are wrong- "It has no froth, is the colour of dark tea and carries an alcohol content of 10% - about double most contemporary beers.

Sakuji Yoshimura, an Egyptologist at Waseda University in Tokyo, helped transcribe the recipe from Egyptian wall paintings.

Kirin spokesman Takaomi Ishii said: "It has a taste very different from today's beer. It tastes a little like white wine."

-- BBC News, Brewers Concoct Ancient Egyptian Ale, 3rd August 2002

Original article: http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/egypt_alcohol.html#.WgR-bLaZPYo#ixzz4xx4WdH7I
© Caroline Seawright

I just told you, brewers adopt fermenters to accept common loads. If they were selling kits to make 6 gallons of beer at a time, we'd find 6 gallon fermenters. There was large amounts of grain available, so we see big fermenters. 40 gallons uses about 100 lbs of grain, which is the amount one man can easily carry. That all fits together.

Forget the road. Use Google Earth as an explorative tool...
 
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King of the Americas said:
"Beer"...is my argument for a settled, advanced, agrarian society. Fermenting does not do well "on the road." It needs to be stable, temperature controlled, if it is wine, racked, and left to settle-out for an initial 21 days, then another 30 or more. Hunting and gathering for beer and wine stuffs for a large community ...??? Nope, not buying it. Someone was cultivating.
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Gatherers of wild grains might well remain in the same place where they found the grains, for weeks (at least) at a time, in their annual cycle of activity. If they could stay to husk and winnow and otherwise process and store the grain, they had time to brew some of it.
 
So, how much time and space might it take to procure the grain to regularly produce 40 gallons of beer, for one brewer? When I was actively making wine, I tried for no less than two batches a year, one red and one white. My brewing cohorts usually had a keg in the fridge and one 'in-the-make,' so that when their keg was empty, there was replacement brew up to bat.

Owning a 40 gallon primary fermenter, in my opinion, meant there were 'regular' deliveries of 100 lb sacks to that brew station. Without refrigeration beer does not keep. Oxygenation destroys it in a matter of days. To keep fresh beer on hand, with limited supplies, would have meant much smaller fermenters.

The walking distance required to pick 5 grains per stalk by hand, per plant, if the plants were less than one foot apart is...let me do a calculation in my head..."WAY TOO FAR"

40 gallon fermenters = advanced agriculture
 
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