Michael Shermer Tries To Ban Book

[dasmiller]

I don't give David Cole the time of day, but it is interesting that this exchange comes up, assuming Cole has not simply invented these emails:

I wouldn't assume that.

ETA: Well, we're pretty confident that he invented the first one, so the only real question is whether he invented the second.

I don't claim any deep insights here, but odd that both have the same sorts of subject/verb disagreements, and the same awkward use of the word "how."

YMMV.

 

[angrysoba]

I wouldn't assume that.

ETA: Well, we're pretty confident that he invented the first one, so the only real question is whether he invented the second.

I don't claim any deep insights here, but odd that both have the same sorts of subject/verb disagreements, and the same awkward use of the word "how."

YMMV.

Eh? The first one was obviously written by Cole but the question is whether or not it was an email, and was actually sent to Shermer, and that the reply was genuine too.

I expect someone who knows Shermer would be able to ask him if he actually wrote it. It would seem strange if Cole somehow added a completely invented email given that all of the other correspondence involved with legal issues appears to be genuine.

As for subject-verb disagreements, I don't know which ones you are referring to, except the one that Cole points out by labelling it [sic], and the spelling mistake he also labels [sic].

I thought I would do a quick Google of Michael Shermer writings to see if any of the constructions in the email pop up in other writings of his as that might suggest they are part of his idiolect.

For example, "unfailingly polite" turns up here, here, and here.

I haven't found him making any similar misspellings of "athiest" though.

But could you give some examples of "awkward" uses of "how"?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

That story is hilarious. There's enough information there to convince me that David Stein is telling the truth about what happened.

Captain Howdy? You already know that David Cole is lying. Mondail has been spamming the David Cole links and did so earlier in the Holocaust Denial thread. iI already debunked Cole in that thread. You read it.

Mondail is also very aware that in David Cole's recent book he clearly states there was a holocaust. It would seem that Modail the holocaust denier is in....well....denial.....


Dr Shermer in 1993
"There is no doubt in my mind that David Cole went to these gas chambers to find problems. And often, we know in science and in any other field, you find what you are looking for. I think he believes the gas chambers were not used for homicidal mass murders. Therefore he's going to find things that don't make sense because that's what he's looking for. So why hasn't anyone else noticed these problems. It could be that there is problems. Maybe he's right. I think the gas chamber story, in terms of physical evidence is the weakest link. To me it doesn't matter if the existing gas chamber is exactly true. Maybe it could be modified. To me it doesn't change to whole holocaust at all because millions still died. It could be six million or five million or four or three or two or one, I would still consider it a holocaust."

David Cole in 2014
"Michael Shermer thinks the gas chambers are the weakest link in the whole story"

David Cole is trying to get publicity for his book by faking some controversy. He's self published, no one is buying his book and he's an ex holocaust denier. Hardly a popular author.

 

[Walter Ego]

David Cole is trying to get publicity for his book by faking some controversy. He's self published, no one is buying his book and he's an ex holocaust denier. Hardly a popular author.

Bingo!

 

[angrysoba]

Captain Howdy? You already know that David Cole is lying. Mondail has been spamming the David Cole links and did so earlier in the Holocaust Denial thread. iI already debunked Cole in that thread. You read it.

Mondail is also very aware that in David Cole's recent book he clearly states there was a holocaust. It would seem that Modail the holocaust denier is in....well....denial.....


Dr Shermer in 1993
"There is no doubt in my mind that David Cole went to these gas chambers to find problems. And often, we know in science and in any other field, you find what you are looking for. I think he believes the gas chambers were not used for homicidal mass murders. Therefore he's going to find things that don't make sense because that's what he's looking for. So why hasn't anyone else noticed these problems. It could be that there is problems. Maybe he's right. I think the gas chamber story, in terms of physical evidence is the weakest link. To me it doesn't matter if the existing gas chamber is exactly true. Maybe it could be modified. To me it doesn't change to whole holocaust at all because millions still died. It could be six million or five million or four or three or two or one, I would still consider it a holocaust."

David Cole in 2014
"Michael Shermer thinks the gas chambers are the weakest link in the whole story"

David Cole is trying to get publicity for his book by faking some controversy. He's self published, no one is buying his book and he's an ex holocaust denier. Hardly a popular author.

Bingo!

Okay, but surely the question of this thread is whether or not Shermer tried to sue Cole and whether Shermer's lawyers had to backtrack.

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . (mega-snip) . . . David Cole is trying to get publicity for his book by faking some controversy. He's self published, no one is buying his book and he's an ex holocaust denier. Hardly a popular author.

An "ex holocaust denier"? You mean he now acknowledges the Holocaust took place?

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

An "ex holocaust denier"? You mean he now acknowledges the Holocaust took place?

I think there are other threads all about Cole's holocaust denial. People in this thread seem to be more into attacking the arguer than the argument.

 

[Psi Baba]

I don't think Shermer actually called Cole a racist. According to Cole's article, what Shermer said was:

You say [in the Skeptic Magazine article], ‘revisionists like Weber, Zundel, Irving, Cole, and Smith have tried to convince me they are not racists and have no political agendas, but they have been contradicted from within their own ranks.’

By those statements alone, Shermer does not call Cole a racist. He merely said that this group of people "have tried to convince me they are not racists," and that "they have been contradicted from within their own ranks." In other words, they have insisted that they are not racists, and other people have called them racists, not Shermer.

Shermer only apologized to Cole that the implication by inclusion was unfair. He did not apologize for calling him a racist, but he did carefully say that he didn't think Cole was a racist. Shermer knows how to choose his words extremely carefully. He has debated with Holocaust Deniers which is extremely hazardous, like dancing through a minefield. I would be surprised if he were as careless with his words as Cole is making him out to be.

 

[Walter Ego]

I don't think Shermer actually called Cole a racist. According to Cole's article, what Shermer said was:

You say [in the Skeptic Magazine article], ‘revisionists like Weber, Zundel, Irving, Cole, and Smith have tried to convince me they are not racists and have no political agendas, but they have been contradicted from within their own ranks.’

By those statements alone, Shermer does not call Cole a racist. He merely said that this group of people "have tried to convince me they are not racists," and that "they have been contradicted from within their own ranks." In other words, they have insisted that they are not racists, and other people have called them racists, not Shermer.

Shermer only apologized to Cole that the implication by inclusion was unfair. He did not apologize for calling him a racist, but he did carefully say that he didn't think Cole was a racist. Shermer knows how to choose his words extremely carefully. He has debated with Holocaust Deniers which is extremely hazardous, like dancing through a minefield. I would be surprised if he were as careless with his words as Cole is making him out to be.

But surely we must always accept the word of Holocaust deniers above that of Shermer's.

 

[angrysoba]

But surely we must always accept the word of Holocaust deniers above that of Shermer's.

No, nobody has to accept the word of Holocaust deniers above that of Shermer's, BUT the question is whether or not Shermer tried to sue Cole. It looks like he did and there hasn't been much of an argument against that except for assurances that David Cole is a pretty vile person. This may well be true, but doesn't answer the question.

 

[angrysoba]

I don't think Shermer actually called Cole a racist. According to Cole's article, what Shermer said was:
By those statements alone, Shermer does not call Cole a racist. He merely said that this group of people "have tried to convince me they are not racists," and that "they have been contradicted from within their own ranks." In other words, they have insisted that they are not racists, and other people have called them racists, not Shermer.

Shermer only apologized to Cole that the implication by inclusion was unfair. He did not apologize for calling him a racist, but he did carefully say that he didn't think Cole was a racist. Shermer knows how to choose his words extremely carefully. He has debated with Holocaust Deniers which is extremely hazardous, like dancing through a minefield. I would be surprised if he were as careless with his words as Cole is making him out to be.

Yeah, but if this transcript is genuine then it shows that Shermer does not think Cole is a racist but that Shermer is aware his words give that impression:

Me: “You say [in the Skeptic Magazine article], ‘revisionists like Weber, Zundel, Irving, Cole, and Smith have tried to convince me they are not racists and have no political agendas, but they have been contradicted from within their own ranks.’ But then you don’t go on to explain anything, any kind of ‘contradiction,’ about me, even though you just included me in that grouping.”
Shermer: “Yeah, I was sorta lumping everyone I had covered in the article . . .”
Me: “But that’s not fair to me.”
Shermer: “Yeah, that’s true. That’s right.”
Me: “I mean, you don’t think I’m racist . . .”
Shermer: “No, I don’t.”
Me: “But, you do understand that that might give the impression I am, for people who read it who don’t know me . . .”
Shermer: “Yeah, yeah . . . it would.”
Me: “I mean, honestly, that’s not really fair to me, is it?”
Shermer: “I would agree.”
Me: “That it wasn’t fair to me.”
Shermer: “Right.”

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Okay, but surely the question of this thread is whether or not Shermer tried to sue Cole and whether Shermer's lawyers had to backtrack.

Well, we don't know. It's private. The letters may only reveal a discussion on one issue whilst other issues are heading to court. That's between them, not us.

However, as David Cole is lying in his claim about Dr Shermer's quote, there is inherent risk that letters he holds out as authentic are fabricated or edited as well. These cases can take years. The other issue is damages. There is no point pursuing someone for damages if they don't have 2 cents to their name.

An "ex holocaust denier"? You mean he now acknowledges the Holocaust took place?

Yes and in the book he is flogging. Mondail already knew that when he made his post.

 

[angrysoba]

Well, we don't know. It's private. The letters may only reveal a discussion on one issue whilst other issues are heading to court. That's between them, not us.

Well, I'm curious nonetheless, and I disagree with your cordoning off of inquiry into this matter. If there are threats of libel action being taken then I think in a sense it is not private at all.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Well, I'm curious nonetheless, and I disagree with your cordoning off of inquiry into this matter. If there are threats of libel action being taken then I think in a sense it is not private at all.

I'm not cordoning it off. I'm saying we don't know and when one party fights a libel case in the media, rather than in front of a judge...and lies.....well make your own opinion.

 

[Mondial]

Captain Howdy? You already know that David Cole is lying. Mondail has been spamming the David Cole links and did so earlier in the Holocaust Denial thread. iI already debunked Cole in that thread. You read it.

Mondail is also very aware that in David Cole's recent book he clearly states there was a holocaust. It would seem that Modail the holocaust denier is in....well....denial.....


Dr Shermer in 1993
"There is no doubt in my mind that David Cole went to these gas chambers to find problems. And often, we know in science and in any other field, you find what you are looking for. I think he believes the gas chambers were not used for homicidal mass murders. Therefore he's going to find things that don't make sense because that's what he's looking for. So why hasn't anyone else noticed these problems. It could be that there is problems. Maybe he's right. I think the gas chamber story, in terms of physical evidence is the weakest link. To me it doesn't matter if the existing gas chamber is exactly true. Maybe it could be modified. To me it doesn't change to whole holocaust at all because millions still died. It could be six million or five million or four or three or two or one, I would still consider it a holocaust."

David Cole in 2014
"Michael Shermer thinks the gas chambers are the weakest link in the whole story"

David Cole is trying to get publicity for his book by faking some controversy. He's self published, no one is buying his book and he's an ex holocaust denier. Hardly a popular author.

I have not been "spamming" the thread I have been making comments. That is only your opinion. If it was spam it would have been disallowed by a moderator. If you can't handle the fact that not everyone believes in holocaust propaganda that is your problem. The blurb above on the top left of the page states "a place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking" etc. People have a right to be skeptical of holocaust claims just like any other historical event. David Cole still stands by his documentary of 1992 in which the director of the Auschwitz museum admits that the "gas chamber" which is shown to tourists as genuine was built post war by the soviet communists - http://codoh.com/library/document/1001/
People who state that they don't accept or believe anything that Cole has to say on the subject of holocaust revisionism simply because they don't like it are acting like religious fanatics. Which is strange on a forum which is devoted to skeptics and skepticism. Of course you have nothing to say about Cole receiving death threats from Zionist thugs or attacks on other revisionists - www.ihr.org/books/ztn.html Why should anyone be subjected to death threats for their opinion on a historical subject? http://codoh.com/library/categories/1167/
Michael Shermer did not just want David Cole to stop publication of his book he wanted him to issue an online apology and recantation on Youtube just like something out of the soviet show trials under Stalin in the 1930s. www.countercontempt.com/archives/5232
More info about Shermer's attempt to mislead people on this topic - www.countercontempt.com/archives/5297

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

[W]hen one party fights a libel case in the media, rather than in front of a judge...and lies....

I may have missed it, but what are you talking about? Where did you demonstrate that Cole had lied about anything to do with the subject of this thread?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I may have missed it, but what are you talking about? Where did you demonstrate that Cole had lied about anything to do with the subject of this thread?

Step 1
Mondail's opening post includes a link to the letters being exchanged. The link supposedly shows the cease & desist's claim "It contains defamatory statements regarding Dr Shermer and transcripts and or discussions of illegally obtained recordings of Dr Shermer's private communications."

Step 2
We read David Cole's deceptive and misleading quote from the recordings.

In 1993 Dr Shermer says to someone else on the phone.
"I think the gas chamber story, in terms of physical evidence is the weakest link."

In 2014 David Cole says "Michael Shermer thinks the gas chambers are the weakest link in the whole story"

David Cole is lying and introducing a strawman and defamatory statement changing Michael Shermer's words. Are you saying this information has nothing to do with the opening post's topic?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

If you can't handle the fact that not everyone believes in holocaust propaganda that is your problem.

You have linked to one sub page on David Stein's webpage, baiting Dr Shermer. If we are going to deal with facts then perhaps we should read more of what David Stein in saying on his webpage.

David Stein "If I’ve written this book well, which is debatable because I didn’t write a single word of it sober"
http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/5001

Then, despite the hard evidence that it is David Stein misquoting Dr Shermer, David Stein goes on to say "And yet, he refused to correct what he describes as “the most misleading thing” he wrote in his supposedly scholarly article about revisionists in Skeptic Magazine. That’s how brazen this fraudulent “skeptic” is ". However, no link to this is provided by David Stein.

I suggest to you that a rather insignificant, ex-holocaust denier, is saying anything he can to obtains sales for his book. The book is not aimed at us. The book is aimed at holocaust deniers and thus is it very entertaining watching David Stein not mentioning two paragraphs in his book.

Treblinka Gas Chambers / David Stein
"They were simple creations---rooms with the exhaust of a car or truck piped in...The gas chambers were simply rooms with no windows, a locked door, and car exhaust piped in. Big outdoor pits, not crematoriums, were used for burning bodies"

AR Camps / David Stein
"From 1942 through 1943, Polish Jewry was subjected to one of the most brutal campaigns of mass murder in human history. Because of the secrecy surrounding those four extermination camps, and the fact that they were ploughed under and erased from existence in 1943, it's difficult to be precise about certain details. ............. more than enough circumstantial evidence exists to show that for most Jews, the train ride to those camps was one-way, and final."

Mondail seems unaware that David Stein is directly stating he now believes in the holocaust and is simply using Holocaust deniers like Mondail to promote his book.

What is more entertaining is this comment from David Stein.
"With Feral House’s track record of having its books made into films, perhaps my story will be optioned for a movie as well"

I hope so. It would have David Stein an ex-holocaust denier convincing holocaust deniers to promote his book, that confirms the holocaust took place. A potential comedy masterpiece. in the same vein as "Mother Night" or "The Producers"

 

[Psi Baba]

Yeah, but if this transcript is genuine then it shows that Shermer does not think Cole is a racist but that Shermer is aware his words give that impression:

That's what I was saying when I said:

Shermer only apologized to Cole that the implication by inclusion was unfair. He did not apologize for calling him a racist, but he did carefully say that he didn't think Cole was a racist.