Michael Moore's Sicko

[Giordano]

So I guess from the responses I see up to now that I was wrong. I thought that Sicko was mostly correct as to facts, with some parts theatrical exaggerations. Now I gather that it was even much more accurate than that. Unless some conservative poster would point out more specific facts that Moore got wrong...

I am happy to admit that Obamacare is fairly imperfect, and that it was hobbled together to obtain a bill that would pass Congress (including provisions that were meant to appease Republicans, a joke in retrospect). I would favor a government-run, single payer system. But for all that, some of the problems identified in Sicko have been at least partially fixed by Obamacare. I for one am thrilled that insurance companies have to cover pre-existing conditions, and that my kids were/are covered by my policy until age 26.

 

[Giordano]

In America, the worst thing you can be is a socialist.

The best thing you can be is a military man, ready to give his life at a moment's notice to protect our uniquely American freedom to never be socialists.

We reward our servicemen and women with 1) a guaranteed job, 2) on the job training, 3) college education, 4) early retirement, and 5) health care.

Waitaminute . . .

You started out absolutely correct. Your only problem was when you left "lip service" to discuss what is actually done in real life. Easy error to make.

 

[Mark6]

And why shouldn't doctors be as rich as they possibly can be? Don't they provide one of the fundamentally necessary services of a society?

By that logic farmers should be even richer. Food is even more of a necessity than medical care.

 

[grunion]

A few years before Sicko, back in 1995 or so, Michael Moore had a short-lived TV show called "TV Nation." I guess the network suits finally came to their senses and actually watched the show, muttered "holy heck, we are letting this subversive on the air?" and found a wacky sitcom to stick in its place.

One of the episodes, "Health Care Olympics" pits Canada, US and Cuba against each other. Available on youtube.



Sometime later I heard Michael Moore answering questions about this episode and he admitted to succumbing to some pressure in the final rankings.

 

[Vic Vega]

americans appear to be missing the empathy gene (why should we pay for someone else?)

It's far more complicated than that. Look at the studies that have been done that find Americans give more to charitable causes than any other people in the world. A high level of religious belief and donations to religious organizations only partially explain this. We are a very generous people in this way and contribute huge amounts of money when disasters happen anywhere in the world.

Americans, as a whole, however, are terrified of socialism. This is, of course, completely irrational, but has been ingrained in our politics over the past 75 years. Our national fear of this is absurd and juvenile, but it is not going away any time soon. It's also something that the Republican party has used, along with divisive issues like abortion, taxes, gun control and other things to get a large percentage Americans to vote against their own economic and social self-interest.

It's a very strange phenomenon and, in my opinion, one of the worst things about this country and one of the most damaging things that is caused by the importance of religion to many Americans.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

It is complicated, but IMO it is not a switch which can be flipped and whammo - socialized medicine. There are several things which need to happen. Firstly, these docs cannot be required to dump a hundred thousand or more into medical school. Once you have gone into that kind of debt, you cannot come out the other end into a regulated salary and be expected to pay back the debt.

Secondly, malpractice insurance prices must be reduced. Docs could not live on a socialized medicine salary and pay the current US malpractice rates. In order to reduce those rates, the frivolous lawsuits must be controlled.

Thirdly, the US attitude towards healthcare must be adjusted. We are used to the best possible treatments and getting them right now, regardless of potential outcome.

 

[The Shrike]

Your only problem was when you left "lip service" to discuss what is actually done in real life.

See? Socialism doesn't work!

 

[Tinyal]

From my own perspective (YMMV); 7 years ago I was involved in a massive auto crash (not my fault). After 30 days Intensive Care plus almost a year to learn to walk again, my medical bills came to 2.9 Million Dollars.
Without insurance, I would have been bankrupted for the rest of my life (as well as in a wheelchair until I croaked) - my share was 8K, which was enough of a struggle as it was.
My policy is, however, a top-line Platinum package neogiated with Union help - something that used to apply to 70% of Americans, but now only about 7%.
I understand I was very, very lucky - but it shouldn't take 'luck' to avoid serfdom after an accident. Not in what is supposed to be the most advanced country on earth.
Not in a 'highly civilized' society.

But the USA is no longer 'highly civilized' - it's a cutthroat, 'I've got mine now you go get yours' society, with a sick over emphasis on capitalism (coupled with a sick misunderstanding of socialism, promoted by a vast political engine gamed up to funnel the cash to the top .01%).

Add quite a bit of Fear (promoted by the likes of Fox, and most repugs), mix in nicely with residual shocks from 9/11, sprinkle a little 'you've lost your job to a computer, or it's been outsourced' - this recipe is what's cookin' in America.

It's been simmering since Reagan and the Moral Majority.

If I want to remain in America, I have basically no choice other than try to get mine (being as socially conscious as I'm able) before it's 'All Done all Gone!'.

When people as socialist as myself are tempted to isolate in some rural woodsy area, avoid the big cities, and go off grid - well, then things are truly ********** up

 

[Pup]

From my own perspective (YMMV); 7 years ago I was involved in a massive auto crash (not my fault). After 30 days Intensive Care plus almost a year to learn to walk again, my medical bills came to 2.9 Million Dollars.
Without insurance, I would have been bankrupted for the rest of my life (as well as in a wheelchair until I croaked) - my share was 8K, which was enough of a struggle as it was.

My luck has been similar. For years, my wife and I had paid for private individual insurance at about $7,000 a year for a family policy, because we were both retired and couldn't get a group policy and weren't old enough for Medicare. That was about a quarter of our income, but absolutely necessary in case of a situation like yours. With deductable and annual cap, plus premium, I think we would have paid about $17,000 a year max per person--enough to bankrupt anyone without significant assets, but we could have done it, not happily though. Fortunately, we were both reasonably healthy. I think we only hit the max a couple times in 20 years.

Then Obamacare care came, and we suddenly had zero premium, zero deductible, zero co-pay, no lifetime cap. A few months later, I was diagnosed with stage IV cancer. There's one targeted chemo drug for my kind of cancer, that costs about $10,000 a month. It's keeping the cancer under control for now, but I'll need to take it every day until I die.

Add in other medication, a few hospital stays, CT scans and MRIs, and without insurance it would cost probably $200,000 a year to keep me alive. With the old insurance, $17,000ish. With Obamacare, $0. But that's due to us living very frugally all along, not needing much income, and therefore appearing "poor" to the charts.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I am very sorry to hear this, Pup. I am glad it can be kept under control, although chemo forever does not sound fun. It is good to know of a good Obamacare story to offset all the bad ones I hear, being in the medical industry. Best wishes to you and your wife.

 

[Pup]

I am very sorry to hear this, Pup. I am glad it can be kept under control, although chemo forever does not sound fun. It is good to know of a good Obamacare story to offset all the bad ones I hear, being in the medical industry. Best wishes to you and your wife.

Thank you! Actually, this is one of the shiny new targeted chemos, which has almost no side effects and is just a pill twice a day. They're coming up with these, but the price tags are high.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Regarding these health insurance horror stories, I'd like to know how much the Affordable Care Act has ameliorated this problem. It looks like you can still go bankrupt from hospital bills, but it's somewhat less likely now.

 

[devnull]

Americans, as a whole, however, are terrified of socialism.

Yeh, I can see that's a better way to frame the issue. Because socialism = communism, right?

Australians, on the other hand, have no issue admitting that we are a centre-leftish socialist nation. Nobody bats an eyelid.

 

[devnull]

Regarding these health insurance horror stories, I'd like to know how much the Affordable Care Act has ameliorated this problem. It looks like you can still go bankrupt from hospital bills, but it's somewhat less likely now.

Id like to know if there would ever be any inclination to forgive medical debts in some way.

I mean, let's face it, someone left with $20M medical debt is never going to pay it. You simply arent going to see your money. All that debt will do is act as an anchor around that person's neck.

 

[wollery]

There are merits to such a system. I prefer to take responsibility for my own care on my own terms.

So you're happy to pay more money for a service that will actively seek to find ways to not pay for the treatment you need, rather than less money for a service that will treat everyone for whatever illness without extra charge?

Okay, each to their own I guess.

I'd rather pay less money and have the comfort of knowing that if I get seriously ill I'll definitely be treated and it definitely won't make me bankrupt.

 

[devnull]

I'd rather pay less money and have the comfort of knowing that if I get seriously ill I'll definitely be treated and it definitely won't make me bankrupt.

Me too, and it's also a bonus to know that other people will be treated too, regardless of their means.

 

[wollery]

Me too, and it's also a bonus to know that other people will be treated too, regardless of their means.

Indeed, why pay more than you have to, and give to charity to assuage your conscience, when you can pay less and feel good about helping the less fortunate in one fell swoop?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lothian]

I've never stepped over a dying person to go to work. This isn't Mexico or Honduras!

There are merits to such a system. I prefer to take responsibility for my own care on my own terms.

The issue is not really about your care on your terms rather the care for people who can not afford to take financial responsibility for their own care. Either you share the cost of looking after those people amongst those who can afford it or you walk over their dying bodies as you live your life.

The main thing I got from Sicko is Rat's point. The amont people spend on looking after themselves through insurance is more than they would spend if the costs of their care were shared out amongst the insured.

That is obvious because you don't just pay for your actual risk you also pay amounts to support and give a nice life to those in the medical insurance industry.

I also took that the costs of providing care to the uninsured spread out amongst the whole population was more per head than in comparable countries who provide universal free healthcase suggesting inefficiencies/profiteering in the US system.

 

[Giordano]

I've never stepped over a dying person to go to work. This isn't Mexico or Honduras! There are merits to such a system. I prefer to take responsibility for my own care on my own terms.

Then Moore did what he set out to do. The situation was not as bad as he made it out to be. And why shouldn't doctors be as rich as they possibly can be? Don't they provide one of the fundamentally necessary services of a society?

America is not unique there.

1. I know people who have had to step over severely sick, unconscious people to get to work (in Boston and in NYC). Some of those sick people eventually died (particularly in winter, when they are brought into the ER dead, or nearly so, with hypothermia). I certainly myself have seen severely ill people huddled on the street for days and who appear to be homeless. So it happens.

2. Not everyone can take responsibility for their own health care. Often they don't have the money to do so. Individual health care and individual insurance is extremely expensive in the USA, to the point where if my business did not pay part of my health insurance, I could not afford my plan as an individual. And I make more than average.

3. Not only should doctors make as much as they can (although I think that how much health insurance companies make is more relevant to the current discussion) but I think that police and firefighters should also. Perhaps a bidding scheme might work, where you only paid for firefighting after your house actually caught fire, and then you would negotiate with the firefighters how much you were willing to pay them to put out the fire. That should ensure that they were well paid, and resembles the USA health care system in many ways.

In fact, medical care is not tightly linked to the life-saving services it delivers. For example, very cheap vaccines save far more lives than very expensive orthopedic surgeons. But I don't begrudge even the well paid orthopedic surgeons their salaries so much as I begrudge the profits made by the insurance companies, some private hospitals, and medical supply corporations. But whoever profits, I believe that good health care should be ensured to all by society just as is police and fire protection. It works in other countries pretty well.

More generally, I sincerely would appreciate learning specifics as to how Sicko presented the situation as worse than it was at the time. This is exactly what I thought for many years (that Moore took theatrical liberty with the facts) but I have yet to see a citation of a specific exaggeration or falsehood in Sicko. So until I do, I am leaning toward believing that Sicko was much more accurate than I previously thought.

 

[Garrette]

1. I know people who have had to step over severely sick, unconscious people to get to work (in Boston and in NYC). Some of those sick people eventually died (particularly in winter, when they are brought into the ER dead, or nearly so, with hypothermia). I certainly myself have seen severely ill people huddled on the street for days and who appear to be homeless. So it happens.

2. Not everyone can take responsibility for their own health care. Often they don't have the money to do so. Individual health care and individual insurance is extremely expensive in the USA, to the point where if my business did not pay part of my health insurance, I could not afford my plan as an individual. And I make more than average.

3. Not only should doctors make as much as they can (although I think that how much health insurance companies make is more relevant to the current discussion) but I think that police and firefighters should also. Perhaps a bidding scheme might work, where you only paid for firefighting after your house actually caught fire, and then you would negotiate with the firefighters how much you were willing to pay them to put out the fire. That should ensure that they were well paid, and resembles the USA health care system in many ways.

In fact, medical care is not tightly linked to the life-saving services it delivers. For example, very cheap vaccines save far more lives than very expensive orthopedic surgeons. But I don't begrudge even the well paid orthopedic surgeons their salaries so much as I begrudge the profits made by the insurance companies, some private hospitals, and medical supply corporations. But whoever profits, I believe that good health care should be ensured to all by society just as is police and fire protection. It works in other countries pretty well.

More generally, I sincerely would appreciate learning specifics as to how Sicko presented the situation as worse than it was at the time. This is exactly what I thought for many years (that Moore took theatrical liberty with the facts) but I have yet to see a citation of a specific exaggeration or falsehood in Sicko. So until I do, I am leaning toward believing that Sicko was much more accurate than I previously thought.

One of history's wealthiest men done did that:

Some of Crassus' wealth was acquired conventionally, through traffic in slaves, production from silver mines, and speculative real estate purchases. Crassus tended to specialize in deals involving proscribed citizens and especially and notoriously purchasing during fires or structural collapse of buildings. When buildings were burning, Crassus and his purposely-trained crew would show up, and Crassus would offer to purchase the presumably doomed property and perhaps neighboring endangered properties from their owners for speculatively low sums; if the purchase offer was accepted, Crassus would then use his army of some 500 slaves which he purchased due to their knowledge of architecture and building to put the fire out, sometimes before too much damage had been done: otherwise Crassus would use his crews to rebuild. If his purchase offers were not accepted, then Crassus would not engage in firefighting. Crassus's slaves employed the Roman method of firefighting—destroying the burning building to curtail the spread of the flames.[8] Similar methods were used by Crassus in the common event of the collapse of the large Roman buildings known as insulae, which were notorious for their poor construction and unsafe conditions. Crassus was happy to cheaply construct new insulae using his slave labour force, in place of the old insulae which had collapsed and/or burned; however, he was known for his raising of rents rather than for his erection of improved residential structures