Michael Moore newsletter 7/4/2004

Jocko said:


I'm sorry, I thought this was up on this thread, when it's actually on another. Rik quotes Moorewatch thus:


Here is the quote in it's entirety.



“Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.”

To me the editing doesn't change the meaning. She states there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11 and supports that statement by saying it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.”

What was the context of the statement Condi Rice made? What question was she answering?

Her statement, if made to support the idea of going to war with Iraq, would indicate that every country that had ideologies of hatred caused the Saudis to fly into the towers. Why choose Iraq? It has been proven that there were no ties between Al Queada and Saddam Hussein.

Osama bin Laden caused the Saudis to fly into the towers; not Saddam Hussein. She tried to spin it so it supported the march to war, but it seems to me her answer did not justify the war in Iraq, which I think was the point Michael Moore was trying to make.

I think the major point of Michael Moore's film was that there were no good reasons to go to war against Iraq.

Are you saying that Condi's entire quote justified the war?
 
tamiO said:



Her statement, if made to support the idea of going to war with Iraq, would indicate that every country that had ideologies of hatred caused the Saudis to fly into the towers. Why choose Iraq? It has been proven that there were no ties between Al Queada and Saddam Hussein.

Untrue. There are proven ties, just no proven collaboration. And no one has claimed Iraq was responsible for 9/11 particularly.

Osama bin Laden caused the Saudis to fly into the towers; not Saddam Hussein. She tried to spin it so it supported the march to war, but it seems to me her answer did not justify the war in Iraq, which I think was the point Michael Moore was trying to make.

Then why did he have to resort to dishonest editing to make it appear she said something she did not? I'm sure he has lots of points, but if he can't produce untainted evidence to support them, I frankly don't give a rat's ass what he thinks.

I think the major point of Michael Moore's film was that there were no good reasons to go to war against Iraq.

Arguably true. But the question at hand is Moore's dishonesty in making his case. Thankfully, he is not the only one. There are many arguments with integrity out there; it seems silly to hang your beliefs on flawed reasoning and deceptive presentation Moore supplied.

Are you saying that Condi's entire quote justified the war?

No. No one is saying that. What I am saying is that Moore resorted to unethical editing decisions that make his work highly suspect. I would also add that the blind spot his fans suffer from is the only reason this debate is taking place at all.

The man lies. Even if it's with the best of intentions, they are still lies - and certainly below the serious consideration of a skeptical mind.
 
MacGuffin said:


I HOLD IN MY HAND A LIST OF 205 KNOWN COMMUNISTS!

When all else fails, call your enemy a Commie, it has always seemed to work in the past.

I again commend Michael Moore on his great pro-America film and to keep up the good work.

Share and Enjoy - Aaron

Indeed. Sending GWB packing is about the most patriotic thing any American can do.

97% true is probably about right re Moore's film. His critics, like Fred Barnes and C. Hitchens , have not been particularly convincing. Either their accusations don't hold up, or are largely a matter of interpretation - such as all the supposed contradictions Hitchens' mentioned in his hit piece on Moore.
 
You know this because...

...I've read the book.

Sounds like an Ann Coultier book.

My point exactly: Moore is using the same sort of method Coutler does--only he's better at it, which is not exactly a big compliment. So why do you believe Moore and not her? Surely both are unreliable.

Except the right can't do it without fabrication that would by default make Moore look even more reasonable.

"Even more" reasonable than what, exactly?

What I am saying is that you make yet another assumption. That such a movie is possible without completely and immediately backfiring.

Moore's "9/11" is rather good evidence that it is. Try Soviet-era "anti-capitalist" films and nazi-era German films and you'd see it's possible, too. Do you REALLY think ALL those who admired the wonderful, humane, moderate man who was the hero of Lenni Reifenstahl's "Hitler Over Germany" (to name one) were just scared of the Gestapo? No, they believed it.

The truth is, people can--and are--fooled by the crudest propaganda; and the more they think they're too smart for it, the more easily they fall for it. It's quite possible to be brainwashed by propaganda without any coersion, or for that matter realizing it; in fact, that's what it's trying to achieve.

Advertisers know this damn well. Think about it: you see a 30-second broadcast on television that you KNOW is sent to you by those who have a vested interest to buy X, that you KNOW have no way to force you to buy X, that you KNOW will only tell you what they think will make you buy X regardless of the truth...

...and you still go and buy X. How much more easily can you be brainwashed if you don't know--or refuse to believe--that the advertiser (Moore, in this case) is only telling you what he wants you to see with the purpose of making you vote for X? In fact, it's effective even if you DO know that.

I'm sure (not really, I'm guessing) someone will try, that it will be a stinking piece of crap, and righties will whine about liberal dominance of whatever when it goes over like a lead balloon.

They already did. There was a movie, very similar to Moore's, "connecting the dots" about Bill Clinton and "proving" he is a murderer, a drug runner, etc., etc., etc.

Not only did it flop, but it was the republicans and other conservatives themselves that renounced it as utter nonsense, fearing that such conspiracy theory loony idea will rub off of them. Nobody in the conservative circles claimed there was a "liberal conspiracy" against it (at least not in mainstream republican party people or other reputable organizations), and they actually breathed a sigh of relief when it flopped.

The truth is, that while the liberals keep ranting about republican "lies", the record shows that it is them, not the right, who are masters of stretching and manipulating the truth for their purposes, or embracing those (like Moore) who do.

People get upset when they think they are lied to or misled. If it turns out Moore is lying, it will come back around, don't you worry.

Indeed so. After all, once it became totally clear that the Marxist revolution has been an utter disaster--the mid-30s at the latest--it didn't take longer than, oh, 50-60 years for most marxists in the west to renounce it.

You're quite wrong, Suddenly. People WANT to be lied to and mislead--as long as the lies are pleasant to their self esteem. Moore capitalizes on this fact (in both senses of the word). Even if it turns out (as is already the case) that Moore's "Bush is evil and we liberal people are the true heroes of America" schtick is, to say the least, inaccurate, getting them away from this comforting fantasy would be like taking a chicken bone from a dog. Look how long it took to get them to let go of the "capitalists like them evil, socialists like us good" mantra.
 
Jocko said:
Then why did he have to resort to dishonest editing to make it appear she said something she did not? I'm sure he has lots of points, but if he can't produce untainted evidence to support them, I frankly don't give a rat's ass what he thinks.

The original quote in context was an example of dishonest speaking to begin with. It was an attempt to suggest a connection without actually suggesting a connection so that there was a defense against fabrication. Really a brilliant use of the press to suggest a claim you want people to adopt but also being sure to admit the lack of evidence in case anyone bothers to listen to the whole thing...

Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.

Moore could go on explaining the Rhetorical nuances of this statement, or just cut through the B.S. and just use the first sentence, which represents the impact that the administration hoped would be felt by the people. The latter is better storytelling.


One of those things that when I first saw the quote in context, Moore's use looked fishy. However, when looked at in the larger context I think that the only objection is rather technical.

I mean, wasn't this supposed to be a straight talking administration? Why the attempt to make a connection when no evidence exists besides to both hope to be sometimes quoted in brief to spread the conception of a Iraq-911 connection but yet have the larger quotation to defend against later accusations of fabrication?

A brilliant piece of rhetoric worthy of the label "Clintonesque." Except that Moore is in the process of trumping it using the same kind of tactic is an equally brilliant move.

Calling it dishonest just makes me wonder what the heck the original statement was meant to do...
 
If I recall correctly rice made this statement in defense of a statement by Bush about their being ties to Al Qaeda. She was trying to get her story in synch with Bush while still having some plausibility.

Someone, find the full context of Rice's quote here.

Lurker
 
Suddenly said:



Moore could go on explaining the Rhetorical nuances of this statement, or just cut through the B.S. and just use the first sentence, which represents the impact that the administration hoped would be felt by the people. The latter is better storytelling.


Well put. I don't think you can blame Moore for getting into all the arguments and semantics used by the Bushes to justify their statements. Statements like this were clearly meant to create the impression of an important connection. I bet that line is what got played in the news media as well, the part that made the impact they wanted.
 
Suddenly said:


The original quote in context was an example of dishonest speaking to begin with. It was an attempt to suggest a connection without actually suggesting a connection so that there was a defense against fabrication. Really a brilliant use of the press to suggest a claim you want people to adopt but also being sure to admit the lack of evidence in case anyone bothers to listen to the whole thing...

So the only way he could "prove" this was the case was to do it himself? I expect a little more from my documentaries, thankyouverymuch.



Moore could go on explaining the Rhetorical nuances of this statement, or just cut through the B.S. and just use the first sentence, which represents the impact that the administration hoped would be felt by the people. The latter is better storytelling.

Or, he could have let her speak for herself. But no, we can't have any thoughts getting out there that haven't already been passed through Moore's political colon, so they're nice and soft and pre-digested for the easy consumption of the audience.

This is the blind spot I keep pointing out. I can't believe you don't see the manipulation at work here - would the extra 10 seconds (where she explains what she's saying, probably in the very same breath fer chrissakes) have fouled up the "storytelling"?


One of those things that when I first saw the quote in context, Moore's use looked fishy. However, when looked at in the larger context I think that the only objection is rather technical.

Shoulda stuck with your first impression, and you should have wondered why he would edit that way - exactly as he's done before, in BFC for instance, for the very same effect. Surely you see the pattern?

I mean, wasn't this supposed to be a straight talking administration? Why the attempt to make a connection when no evidence exists besides to both hope to be sometimes quoted in brief to spread the conception of a Iraq-911 connection but yet have the larger quotation to defend against later accusations of fabrication?

Conjecture, nothing more. Neither you nor Moore can find any instance of the claim, so he invents it and you defend it.

A brilliant piece of rhetoric worthy of the label "Clintonesque." Except that Moore is in the process of trumping it using the same kind of tactic is an equally brilliant move.

Amazing, how certain folks can paint Bush as a bumbling idiot and a master schemer all at the same time.

Moore deceived. That you imagine there may be equivalency has no relevance whatsoever, even if true - freshen up on the tu quoque fallacy and you'll see.
 

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