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michael fake it moore

WildCat said:

I think the main problem people have w/ Moore's film is that it's not a documentary, but is presented as one and even won an Oscar as one.

Believe it or not, most documentaries manipulate reality. I just watched "Pumping Iron" and the behind the scenes special features had interviews with Arnold and others who discussed how scenes were fabricated in order to facilitate conflict between bodybuilders.
This is not unusual in documentary filmmaking. At it's heart, documentaries still want to entertain. They need to follow a structure that creates drama and conflict. Often that means stretching the truth, and some might even say lying.
Now, I'm not saying it makes it OK just cause everyone does it, but I'm amused how "Bowling for Columbine" gets singled out and how the cries of "It's not a documentary" get thrown around so rampantly.
 
" Same year KKK is labeled a terroist group by FBI The NRA is born. "

I'm just glad I read this thread so that I could 'learn' that the FBI was around in 1871 to label the KKK a terrorist anything....
:rolleyes:

Now if someone wanted a real piece of racist history, instead of letting Hollywood feed them their 'facts', they could do a little research into UNIA and the actual creation of the FBI.

Unless of course, studying the real history of minority mistreatment is too much of a yawn.

In that case, best you stick to Michael Moore documentaries and the Internet to inform your reality.

Paul
 
KevinG: Exactly! In Hollywood it's entertainment first and the truth is secondary, even if labeled "documentary". If your knowledge of the world and history comes from Hollywood, you are seriously uninformed...
 
Nie Trink Wasser yelps!
It seems quite clear he does not
Like Michael Moore much.

Lots of people think
Michael Moore is full of it.
They aren't obsessive.
 
DaChew said:

But the whole point of the criticism is that Moore wasn't using two cameras. He was obviously only using one camera. Which means the shot of him with the picture of the little girl from the front MUST have been shot later AFTER Heston had left. That means the shot was staged which means that that part of the film was NOT a documentary because it didn't happen that way.
Duh!

But a documentary is NOT meant to be a pure time-line thing. It's simply "documenting" something. Sure, Moore had a POV he wanted to express on the subject, but then so does 60 Minutes and any other "documentary makers".

Heck, Moore even used the standard tabloid documentary-makers' methods: he doorstopped a few companies and people, played the sympathy cards, showed selective extracts from violent videos, conveniently waltzed around a few of the details, used cartoons (graphics) to condense a complex history into 30 secs of memorable humour, etc, etc.

The thing is that he was making a two-hour MOVIE, not a 44min38sec Sunday evening TV show. So the imagery was harder, and the point more pointed. People applaud the "investigative TV journalists", but when Moore does the same thing only more graphic and more pointed, they get upset. Weird. And while the subject was more important than shoddy microwaves and cheating husbands, isn't it amazing that somehow lots of people think it would all be OK if they could just sweep this little exposé under the rug...
 
Zep said:
Duh!

But a documentary is NOT meant to be a pure time-line thing. It's simply "documenting" something. Sure, Moore had a POV he wanted to express on the subject, but then so does 60 Minutes and any other "documentary makers".

Heck, Moore even used the standard tabloid documentary-makers' methods: he doorstopped a few companies and people, played the sympathy cards, showed selective extracts from violent videos, conveniently waltzed around a few of the details, used cartoons (graphics) to condense a complex history into 30 secs of memorable humour, etc, etc.

The thing is that he was making a two-hour MOVIE, not a 44min38sec Sunday evening TV show. So the imagery was harder, and the point more pointed. People applaud the "investigative TV journalists", but when Moore does the same thing only more graphic and more pointed, they get upset. Weird. And while the subject was more important than shoddy microwaves and cheating husbands, isn't it amazing that somehow lots of people think it would all be OK if they could just sweep this little exposé under the rug...
In other words, "Bowling for Columbine" is propaganda.
 
Zep said:
But a documentary is NOT meant to be a pure time-line thing. It's simply "documenting" something. Sure, Moore had a POV he wanted to express on the subject, but then so does 60 Minutes and any other "documentary makers".

I don't think I've ever heard 60 Minutes called a "documentary" show. It's anywhere between an investigative reporting show through an op-ed show all the way down to infotainment, depending on one's point of view.

I don't think too many people would even care enough about Michael Moore to pick the movie apart if it hadn't won and Oscar for "Best Documentary." It was about as much a documentary as The Blair Witch Project was. Or, for that matter, Strictly Ballroom. Besides, I don't lose any sleep over Canadian Bacon.
 
epepke said:

I don't think I've ever heard 60 Minutes called a "documentary" show. It's anywhere between an investigative reporting show through an op-ed show all the way down to infotainment, depending on one's point of view.

I don't think too many people would even care enough about Michael Moore to pick the movie apart if it hadn't won and Oscar for "Best Documentary." It was about as much a documentary as The Blair Witch Project was. Or, for that matter, Strictly Ballroom. Besides, I don't lose any sleep over Canadian Bacon.
The 60 Minutes team(s) rather like to think they are "serious documentary" folks. :)

I agree about your last para. I also take Moore's points on board as well, although I'm not a total fan of his presentation method - smacks too much of throwing a whole bunch of unrelated stuff on the screen and saying "Look at what I found!".

(What's Canadian Bacon? I admit my ignorance! :))
 
Nie Trink Wasser said:
it's not really surprising, but check this out :
This means that Moore, after Heston disappeared, directed his cameraman to shoot him from the front so he could nobly step forward and thrust dead Kayla's picture into frame while shouting sanctimonious bulls**t.. at a Heston who wasn't even there anymore.

Watch the clip (56k, cable) and just look at that self-righteous twit. In fact for all we know Moore's entire holier-than-thou dead Kayla voiceover was added after-the-fact.

Does this mean that the Heston's answers to his question's were faked too?

I hope you are this critical of President Bush.
 
charley_bigtime said:
" Moore claims that the NRA was founded in 1871, "the same year the Klan became an illegal terrorist organization" while showing cartoon NRA members giving Klan members guns which they use to shoot blacks. In reality, the NRA was founded by Union soldiers who hated the Klan, which was primarily made up of Confederate traitors. "
Michael Moore makes weak claims like that all the time. I think it was "Stupid White Men" where he said something along the lines of "There are more African American children living in poverty than Native American children, who are among the poorest of the poor." What does that even mean???

I consider myself a liberal, but I can't stomach Michael Moore. To me, he comes across as a smug author who thinks he's smart and his stupid readers will just believe anything he says.

Have a nice day,
Kelly :)
 
Zep said:
The 60 Minutes team(s) rather like to think they are "serious documentary" folks. :)

OK, whatever. But they haven't won an Oscar for it. Anyway, I don't think that Andy Rooney has ever been presented as anything but an op-ed.

They have done some good skeptical work, such as the time they did a sting operation with respect to the polygraph.

(What's Canadian Bacon? I admit my ignorance! :))

It's a fiction film Moore made, using John Candy and Andrea Martin from Second City fame. Alan Alda plays the President of the United States. Steven Wright plays a Mountie. Dan Ackroyd has a cameo, too. The idea is that the US goes to war with Canada. Of course, most of the people going to war with Canada are played by Canadians.

Very funny movie. It makes fun of American sterotypes of Canadians and Canadian stereotypes of Americans pretty even-handedly.
 
In other words, "Bowling for Columbine" is propaganda.
Parts of the film may well be propaganda, but again, the major question raised by the film was "why do Americans shoot each other so much"; and Moore did not provide an answer. A propaganda film would have a clear cut, simple, easily digested answer.
 
fishbob said:
Parts of the film may well be propaganda, but again, the major question raised by the film was "why do Americans shoot each other so much"; and Moore did not provide an answer. A propaganda film would have a clear cut, simple, easily digested answer.
A propaganda film would probably not have a clear cut, simple, easily digested answer. Propaganda hints at things. Here is an example of propaganda. A communist says, "95% of America's wealth is controlled by 5% of its population."

By saying that he implies that he thinks that having 95% of America's wealth be controlled by 5% of its population is a bad thing, he implies that something should be done about it, and he says that to make people look more favorably upon communism.

If he were to flat out say that he is a communist and he thinks that the proletariat should own the means of production to stop the rich businessmen from enslaving the working class with it's ability to control the wealth, people will be less likely to pay heed to what he says and may get turned off by his political agenda. So he hints at things.

In fact, what I just said may very well be propaganda, because why did I pick communism for my anti-propagandist subject unless I am trying to make communism look bad. I am in fact against communism and that did influence my choice of subject for this propaganda example.
 
fishbob said:
Parts of the film may well be propaganda, but again, the major question raised by the film was "why do Americans shoot each other so much"; and Moore did not provide an answer. A propaganda film would have a clear cut, simple, easily digested answer.
Oh, sure, it IS propaganda, and there was a "message to be delivered. However, there is a cultural difference operating here too, and I say what follows with trepidation. The difference is that there is a tendency in US cultures to use loud, up-front, in-your-face styles to get messages across: Here's a point, BAM!, here's another, BAM!, see this problem?, SLAM! Subtle it ain't, although there is certainly the ability to be subtle, and a well-developed appreciation of subtlety. It's just that the steady diet of confrontational style (slapstick comedy, Smackdown, Jerry Springer, even Judge Judy) leads to an expectation with average US audience that "the message", whatever it is, will be delivered in soundbite-size chunks in six-foot-high flashing letters, with pyrotechnics, at some point. And when it isn't, some people do indeed miss the point.

By comparison, other cultures really do notice the contrast - the above examples are considered typical "American-style" loud, shouting, finger-pointing fare, and are a clear exception, culturally. You just do not see programmes being made like that anywhere else. (I might also point out that America is more than capable of producing highly impressive "subtle fare" too - this isn't a put-down post).

So, getting back to Moore and Bowling for Columbine, Moore's message IS there - there is a culture of media-fed, possibly politically backed fear that has led to a constitutionally-supported culture of gun-ownership in the US as a response (an arguable point certainly, but let's stick to this point first) - but it isn't spelled out directly in flashing capital letters by the film. It needs to be gathered up as the film progresses, as Moore examines points in order, gets diverted with stunts, and waxes lyrical for the overdub.

Now, both my wife and I AND our teenage daughter, picked up on Moore's theme and message immediately, the first time we saw the film. The few people I know here who have seen the film did so likewise, and we even independently received the same message. And yet some American commentators reckoned Moore did not make any points at all and that the film was just a totally jumbled scrapbook. Amazingly, even though we thought the film to be crude, brash and confrontational, deliberately or otherwise, these people were either so thick they needed it in comic form, or their cultural expectation was that "documentary style" must equal Jerry Springer or Mauri Pauvich (or National Geographic highbrow).

Could Moore have done it differently? Better? Sure. But I'm betting his intended audience was the USA, not the world. I thought he was definitely holding a mirror up to his own culture. It just seemed that some people preferred looking at their own portrait instead.
 
Zep said:

Now, both my wife and I AND our teenage daughter, picked up on Moore's theme and message immediately, the first time we saw the film. The few people I know here who have seen the film did so likewise, and we even independently received the same message.

So did we. I was quite surprised. Having read all about the film in this forum, I was expecting something quite different.
 
Ælfgifu said:
Michael Moore makes weak claims like that all the time. I think it was "Stupid White Men" where he said something along the lines of "There are more African American children living in poverty than Native American children, who are among the poorest of the poor." What does that even mean???...snip...

Perhaps if you could give us the actual quote?
 
Zep said:
Duh!

But a documentary is NOT meant to be a pure time-line thing. It's simply "documenting" something.

THAT depends on what type of documentary you are trying to make. Moore's piece is CLEARLY edited in a way that implies a pure time-line event. Also, you can't "document" (why are we using quotes?) something that didn't happen. That's called lying.

The film was presented as a documentary. It has won an award as a documentary. I don't think it's unreasonable to point out the falsehoods in it to those who don't think of it as only entertainment. There are people on this very board who thought Moore's cartoon concerning the Klan and the NRA was factual. You say below that Moore was holding up a mirror to his own culture. But a mirror only reflects what is actually there. It doesn't create it's own images.
 
Mr Manifesto said:


Did you know that in music videos, those pop stars aren't really singing- they're just moving their lips to a dubbed soundtrack?

Well, Elton was probably lip synching when he totally ripped off REO Speedwagon, right American?

Lurker
 

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