Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

I...Not that it needs pointing out, but I should say the bullet pattern is not consistent with the execution-style slaying people first started reporting.

I don't know who those "people" are, but I have never suggested any execution style slaying. That is as absurd to me as any CT in the CT sub-forum.

...He's almost 300lbs. He's not getting far. "Big Mike" didn't even run after he robbed the convenience store. He's not a long-distance runner.

So what is your hypothesis here? Brown started running and decided he was too tired to run far enough to get away?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So what's the answer to boooeee's question? Why wasn't the shot inside the car heard? Muffled by the car? recording wasn't active when it happened?

It's not that it wasn't heard. The recording just started after that first shot.

 

[Cain]

So what is your hypothesis here? Brown started running and decided he was too tired to run far enough to get away?

Brown and Johnson run, Brown stops. He's carrying a lot of weight. Johnson encourages him to continue, says, "We're already twenty-eight feet away." Brown calls B.S. on that. "whadya mean, *****? I'm standing no more than twenty feet from that pig." So they're having this dispute, right? And Mike decides to settle it by counting paces, but Wilson gets the wrong idea.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

there but for the grace of god go I.

There but for a violent felony assault on a police officer go I.

Young black men shot for no reason is a myth. Teaching black children that it can happen to them no matter what they do is child abuse.

 

[Mumbles]

No. I don't see how the first single shot is on the recording. There's not enough time for a shot and then Wilson to get out of the car.

That's my guess as well - it sounds like he started taping with "You are pretty."

Cornball.

Anyway, I guess a count of how many bullets are left, will tell us that.

Here's the thing - if he's so intent on catching or shooting Brown, how long exactly would he wait? Those shots go for quite some time, and I can't imagine Wilson getting out of his car and just watching these two suspects run off for ...what, at least 10 seconds? Brown's body was 35 feet or so from the car, right? If he wanted to pursue, he'd either run, or get back in his car. And if he wanted to shoot, well, he'd start shooting. And Brown certainly wouldn't just stand there while a cop shot at him.

So if there's a missing bullet from his gun, then he must have been shooting at Brown's back.

But to do that, he can really aim from his car, since the window is open and he's parked parallel to the road...so could the pause be him getting out of his car? Hmmm...

 

[jhunter1163]

Actually I would go by the lane markings. No line down the middle = very little traffic. White line, a bit more traffic, yellow line, even more traffic, double white line, even more traffic and double yellow, maximum traffic. The shooting scene road had a double yellow line.

I don't know about you but where I live a no line road is a street with houses and is not used by most people to get from point A to point B unless they actually live on that street (I live on such a street). A single yellow line is a feeder road to the no line at all streets. The closest intersection to me is such a street (and happens to be much less wider than my street). The streets with double yellow lines are main roads on which pretty much everyone drives on to get to the feeder roads which go to the no line roads. The street behind where I live is one of those streets (and is about as wide as my no line street).

I guess my point is that width isn't always an indication of how much traffic uses the road but traffic markings usually are. The crime scene and memorial photos all show a double yellow line so take that as you will.

I live on a corner; one of the cross streets is an arterial (double yellow line, 35 mph speed limit). Kids play on the other street (no line). Any kid playing (or walking) on the double-yellow street would be taking his life in his hands, even though there might only be maybe 50 cars an hour.

 

[Mumbles]

Agreed. I think this recording demolishes the "Josie" story, and I really hope Wilson told that lie to someone who wrote it down.

That would be especially nice, since her story never made any sense in the first place.

Brown slams his door shut once, attacks him, goes for his gun, the gun goes off, Brown starts running...and the standard procedure here is to pursue!?

 

[Cylinder]

That would be especially nice, since her story never made any sense in the first place.

Brown slams his door shut once, attacks him, goes for his gun, the gun goes off, Brown starts running...and the standard procedure here is to pursue!?

Absolutely the SOP is pursue.

Brown is your suspect in a robbery that happened 10 minutes ago and he just assaulted a police officer and backup is en route. Pursuit is going to be his highest priority for that moment.

 

[a_unique_person]

There but for a violent felony assault on a police officer go I.

Young black men shot for no reason is a myth. Teaching black children that it can happen to them no matter what they do is child abuse.

A naked man was tasered by police officers after allegedly cycling into a car before "crash-tackling" a female police officer into a van in Brisbane's West End.
Officers were called after Ethan Pick, 22, was seen acting erratically near the corner of Browning Street and Boundary Street at West End about 8:00am.
Police said when they arrived the man ran at the female officer and repeatedly punched her.
The female officer suffered concussion in the attack and was undergoing tests, they said.
Pick was tasered after the attack, to subdue him.
Florina Alman told ABC News she saw a man earlier taking off his clothes and yelling, before riding a bicycle into a car.
"Quite surprising, quite disruptive and it was quite confronting as well," she said.
"It's not something you see every day getting coffee."
She said the police officer took a "massive hit".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-...er-assaulting-police-officer-brisbane/5705794



No one shot here.

 

[NYCEMT86]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-...er-assaulting-police-officer-brisbane/5705794



No one shot here.

She is lucky, that story could have ended up like this one...

Clark exited the building waving his arms, according to police. He then approached the police vehicle Smith was in and attacked the officer.

Police say there was a struggle during which Clark got a hold of Smith’s gun and shot the officer.

Aside from a driving while intoxicated charge many years ago, Clark has no criminal history.

Source

Question are the police officers in Australia armed?

 

[pakeha]

I said why right there in the sentence.

You want that restated?

Brown was 18, no record, he pushed a store clerk and stole cigars.

I think it's more likely he pushed the door than it is likely he slugged the cop. He has no criminal record of fights, because if you are a black kid who gets in fights you have a criminal record. (See the School to Prison Pipeline: black kids get in a fight at school, cops are called and assault charges filed; white kids get in a fight at school and they get sent to the principal's office and a note sent home to the parents.)

It's one thing to ignore a police order to move to the sidewalk, it's a completely different animal to slug a cop.

It's not that easy to slug someone through a car window, while it's very easy to shove a door back on a person exiting a car, especially if that door just hit you and you reacted.

How is that not enough reason for my opinion for you?

Aren't juvenile records sealed?
How are we (the public) supposed to know if Brown had a juvenile record or not?

[ . . . ]I don't see it that way. The store clerk was half Brown's size and unarmed. And I don't see Brown all hyped up after committing a robbery. He stole cigars, he bullied the clerk. There's not much adrenalin in doing that. [ . . . ]

Dunno.
If this were the hundredth or even the twentieth time Brown had done something similar you could be right.
Do you think Brown was accustomed to stealing and pushing people around?

[ . . . ]SOunds like about what Johnson said - except I think it's more likely Brown was hit by the opening door and pushed it off of him.

Wait a second, by ALL accounts this is what happened. By both Dorian Johnson's AND the police account, one shot was fired while Brown was at the SUV window. Why is it hard to imagine that one of those shots hit him in his arm? [ . . . ]

That report also indicates that Mr. Brown was struggling with officer Wilson inside the car, not shooting out the window.

Seriously? Are you incapable of seeing spacial relationships? Darren Wilson was inside his car, with his hands holding Michael Brown's shirt. Wilson claims that at this time, he had his gun out and Brown attempted to grab it. He had to have had his gun out of the holster, since there's no other way Brown could have reached it. But Brown was either grabbing or punching Wilson, and Wilson grabbed his gun and shot him. There's no disagreement about this from any version of the story.

Just to make sure we'll on the same page- was there or wasn't there an altercation at the car window?

Actually I would go by the lane markings. No line down the middle = very little traffic. White line, a bit more traffic, yellow line, even more traffic, double white line, even more traffic and double yellow, maximum traffic. The shooting scene road had a double yellow line.

I don't know about you but where I live a no line road is a street with houses and is not used by most people to get from point A to point B unless they actually live on that street (I live on such a street). A single yellow line is a feeder road to the no line at all streets. The closest intersection to me is such a street (and happens to be much less wider than my street). The streets with double yellow lines are main roads on which pretty much everyone drives on to get to the feeder roads which go to the no line roads. The street behind where I live is one of those streets (and is about as wide as my no line street).

I guess my point is that width isn't always an indication of how much traffic uses the road but traffic markings usually are. The crime scene and memorial photos all show a double yellow line so take that as you will.

Thanks for the information!

[ . . . ]In your scenario, what made Brown turn around? If he wasn't being shot at, wasn't hit, and didn't believe Wilson would really shoot, why not just keep running?

[[ . . . ]
He's almost 300lbs. He's not getting far. "Big Mike" didn't even run after he robbed the convenience store. He's not a long-distance runner.

I still have trouble with why Brown ran/jogged down the middle of the road when someone's firing a gun behind him.

 

[trustbutverify]

Brown slams his door shut once, attacks him, goes for his gun, the gun goes off, Brown starts running...and the standard procedure here is to pursue!?

Yes!?

 

[lionking]

Question are the police officers in Australia armed?

Yes they are, but, amazingly to some, other methods to neutralise threats are preferred. During the 1980s, in the aftermath of several police being killed, a number of criminals were shot and killed by Victorian Police. A major training effort (Project Beacon) led to police shootings reducing sharply. I worked for Vicpol for much of the 1980s, so saw this cultural change first hand.

Today there are very few shots fired by police, and there have been no deaths in recent years IIRC.

There are 12,500 Victorian Police, one of the world's largest forces.

 

[This is The End]

There you go, trotting out facts again. How dare you. Can't you see the word "conservative" right there in their name? It doesn't matter how much right (as in correct) there is in there, it's completely contaminated with conservative cooties, so of course it's all suspect, and should be completely disregarded as such, you silly ninny.

You seriously don't want to be defending that website. I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you do not know about the website you are seemingly defending. It does matter how one goes about being right even if one is right. A openly and apologetically racist clock is correct at least twice a day.

As Mumbles said, not only is that site a disgrace to the word "conservative", it is a disgrace to the word "treehouse"!

Anyone who links to something on a skeptics forums should be aware of and vet the site that hosts it. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Upchurch]

There but for a violent felony assault on a police officer go I.

Young black men shot for no reason is a myth. Teaching black children that it can happen to them no matter what they do is child abuse.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. There is a claim of a violent felony assault on a police officer by someone who was not there.

Let's put the "skeptic" back in "Skeptic Tank".

Innocent until proven guilty. (Which, btw, I'm sure we all remember from the Zimmerman case that it is "innocent until proven guilty", and the alternative is innocent until proven "not guilty". The opposite is not innocent until "proven innocent". In the USA vary rarely is someone made officially innocent of something, they are merely made not guilty.)

The difference is that, by every appearance, Wilson is guilty of killing Brown. Unless he comes out with a different narrative involving a third person using his gun to kill Brown, the "innocent until proven guilty" ship has sailed. The only defence Wilson can mount now is an affirmative one of self-defence. That is going to require him to prove he reasonably perceived that his life was in danger.

eta: well, I guess it isn't that different from Zimmerman, except for more witnesses.
Without physical evidence, that could be a hard sell.

 

[BenBurch]

Does everyone agree the recording has been authenticated?

Well, you'll never convince Free Republic. But the company authenticates that recording based on their internal logs and evidence, so it matches in time and place.

 

[pakeha]

Yes they are, but, amazingly to some, other methods to neutralise threats are preferred. During the 1980s, in the aftermath of several police being killed, a number of criminals were shot and killed by Victorian Police. A major training effort (Project Beacon) led to police shootings reducing sharply. I worked for Vicpol for much of the 1980s, so saw this cultural change first hand.

Today there are very few shots fired by police, and there have been no deaths in recent years IIRC.

There are 12,500 Victorian Police, one of the world's largest forces.

Thanks for that overview.

 

[BenBurch]

Not much traffic? The street in front of my house is considered a "busy" residential street. You could still walk down the middle and only see cars sporadically.

People walk down my 45' wide two lane street all the time. (It is the widest residential street in town because it once had three trolley tracks on it to serve the park.) We have one old guy (never figured out if he was homeless) who runs all day and is always running down the middle of streets. Cops sometimes shoo him to the sidewalk but nobody ever tickets him. Actually, I haven't seen him in a while now, I hope he's OK.

 

[Distracted1]

That would be especially nice, since her story never made any sense in the first place.

Brown slams his door shut once, attacks him, goes for his gun, the gun goes off, Brown starts running...and the standard procedure here is to pursue!?

It seems to be the consensus that the door was shut, among many posters here.

When I hear " pushed him back into the car " it seems like the door would be open.
Although, Mr. Browns companion told a different story originally about the door which may also turn out to be true, the narrative put forth by what hearsay there is about officer Wilson's version of events has me picturing an open door.

 

[Mumbles]

Well, you'll never convince Free Republic. But the company authenticates that recording based on their internal logs and evidence, so it matches in time and place.

I'm not so sure about the "place" part - I tried it out on my phone, and the GPS indicator didn't show up like it's supposed to. But we should be able to take their word on the time.

(I did see that hilariously sales-pitch-esque announcement, though, and yes, I know it says "a man nearby")