Michael Brown Shooting

[Distracted1]

Yes, the original police story said that Wilson's gun went off while Wilson was still in the car. I presume that this shot hit Brown, since that's what accounts for all the shots.

The evidence is supposed to tell the story of what happened, you know that. Further, under such a serious charge, the evidence needs to pretty much show that only that is what could have happened. Making a supposition, and then showing how the evidence doesn't necessarily prove it didn't happen that way is not good enough. Unless one is part of a lynch mob.

 

[This is The End]

What do you think Brown would have done with the weapon had he gotten ahold of it?

We do not yet have any solid evidence that Brown went for the gun.

That is especially poignant considering the fact that if the officer really did make a mistake and shoot without justification, "went for my gun" is one of the top, if not the very top, excuses a seasoned officer would reach for if he was so inclined to cover his ***.

For those who cannot read: I am not saying that is what happened. I am only saying that if the officer did shoot unjustifiably, and if he was the type who would want to cover his *** instead of manning up and admitting wrong doing, then he would want to try and paint the best case scenario, one of the top ones being "went for my gun".

But, with all of that in mind, it is quite logical to assume that if Brown really did try for the gun he would have used it on the officer "had he gotten ahold of it".

Does that answer your question?

 

[Distracted1]

Seriously? Are you incapable of seeing spacial relationships? Darren Wilson was inside his car, with his hands holding Michael Brown's shirt. Wilson claims that at this time, he had his gun out and Brown attempted to grab it. He had to have had his gun out of the holster, since there's no other way Brown could have reached it. But Brown was either grabbing or punching Wilson, and Wilson grabbed his gun and shot him. There's no disagreement about this from any version of the story.

Are you making the assumption that the car door was closed during this struggle?

 

[Distracted1]

We do not yet have any solid evidence that Brown went for the gun.

That is especially poignant considering the fact that if the officer really did make a mistake and shoot without justification, "went for my gun" is one of the top, if not the very top, excuses a seasoned officer would reach for if he was so inclined to cover his ***.

For those who cannot read: I am not saying that is what happened. I am only saying that if the officer did shoot unjustifiably, and if he was the type who would want to cover his *** instead of manning up and admitting wrong doing, then he would want to try and paint the best case scenario, one of the top ones being "went for my gun".

But, with all of that in mind, it is quite logical to assume that if Brown really did try for the gun he would have used it on the officer "had he gotten ahold of it".

Does that answer your question?

Interesting point.
Would proving that Mr. Brown did indeed go for the patrolman's gun actually be adequate to "cover his ass", in your opinion?

Try to imagine that you decided to attack a policeman one day, isn't going for his weapon the first thing you would do. ( tabling, for the sake of discussion, how you may feel about the craziness involved in attacking a police officer in the first place ). Could you, in fact, imagine attacking any armed person and not trying immediately trying to disarm them?

 

[Cylinder]

There's three sets of shots. One in the car, some more while giving chase, then four more which are likely the fatal shots. Josie claimed that between sets two and three, Brown stopped and taunted Wilson and then charged him. The tape makes that impossible since there is not enough time for this to have occurred.

The audio doesn't seem to have the initial firing sequence. The Josie narrative doesn't address anything like "sets two and three" of shots -- it's just a brief sequence.

Okay. So he said that they, you know, um, they were walking in the middle of the street and he rolled his window down and, you know, said “Come on guys out of the street.”

Um, they refused to, and were yelling back and saying: “We are almost where we are going.”

There was some cussing involved, um, and then he just kept rolling up and he pulled over, and I believe, at that point, he called for a backup but I am not sure.

But I know he pulled up ahead of them and he was watching them and then gets the call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery, and they get the description, and he was looking at them and they got something in their hands that looks like it could be, what, you know, those cigars or whatever, so he goes in reverse back to them and tries to get out of his car and they slam his door shut violently–I think he said Michael did–then he opened his car again and tries to get out. and as he stands up, Michael just bum rushes him, just shoves him back into the car, and punches him in the face, and then of course Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun. At one point he has the gun totally turned against his hip and Darren, you know, shoves it away and the gun goes off.

Well then Michael takes off with his friend and he gets about 35 feet away and, um, you know, Darren–of course protocol is to pursue–so he stands up and yells: “Freeze!”

Um, Michael and his friend turn around and Michael starts taunting him: “Oh what are you going to do about it?”, you know, “You are not going to shoot me!”

And then, he said, all of a sudden he just started to bum rush him. He just started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting, and he just kept coming. So he really thinks he was on something, um, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable.

And then–so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about 2 or 3 feet in front of the officer. So that is why the stories are going around that “Oh, he was shot execution style.” I think some people saw, you know, the shots to his head. Of course ballistics will prove he wasn’t shot in the back like the other people are saying that quote unquote when this [???]. But that’s, um, that is his version of what happened.

Neither the purported audio nor the Josie narrative address three sets of shots.

 

[Skeletor]

Oh how different this case might be if there was only a dashcam in Wilson's SUV.

I think police officers should welcome the addition of dash and body cams, if only to show us what really happened. I think Wilson would've been in lockup or driving a desk by now, instead of hiding.

Does everyone agree the recording has been authenticated?

I agree that the recording is valid, I am just really curious how it fits in with the forensic analysis.

 

[davefoc]

If this is a recording of the shooting, any thoughts as to why the first shot from within the car doesn't show up on the audio? The witness accounts and the police accounts seem pretty consistent on that point. I suppose the shot could have been muffled by the car.

Is the consensus right now that the first shot on the recording is the shot in the car?

Yes. Here's the break down:

.636 s between shot 1 and shot 2
.380 s between shot 2 and shot 3
.304 s between shot 3 and shot 4
.275 s between shot 4 and shot 5
.332 s between shot 5 and shot 6

3.038 s between shot 6 and shot 7

.959 s between shot 7 and shot 8

.399 s between shot 8 and shot 9*
.389 s between shot 9 and shot 10*

* shot 9 is a little hard to pinpoint

Based on what I understood Josie's story to be I expected more of a lag between shots one and two. The separation of shots looks more like Wilson fired a shot from within the car and kept firing or Wilson wasn't in the car when the first shot went off. .636 seconds doesn't seem like enough time to get out of the car, re aim and fire off a shot. And the idea that Wilson gave chase before he fired off his next shot seems obviously false, unless for some reason the first shot wasn't recorded. ETA: Is it possible that Wilson was firing on the run? Is that considered acceptable police procedure? Is it possible to shoot with any accuracy on the run?

The last two shots bare a strange similarity to the last two shots in the video I linked to above. The victim was lying on the ground there was a pause in the shooting and then somebody pumped two more shots into the victim.

ETA:I wonder if blood spatter analysis and blood trail evidence when combined with the audio information and the shell casing locations might provide a pretty clear of what happened here. If it can be worked out that Brown is more than 20 feet away from Wilson when the final shots are fired will Wilson be in trouble?

ETA: What is the most pro Wilson narrative that is consistent with the audio evidence?

 

[Mumbles]

Interesting point.
Would proving that Mr. Brown did indeed go for the patrolman's gun actually be adequate to "cover his ass", in your opinion?

Try to imagine that you decided to attack a policeman one day, isn't going for his weapon the first thing you would do. ( tabling, for the sake of discussion, how you may feel about the craziness involved in attacking a police officer in the first place ). Could you, in fact, imagine attacking any armed person and not trying immediately trying to disarm them?

Well, having seen videos of many people attacking (apparently this includes shoving now) a cop, apparently the answer is a resounding "yes". According to the FBI, 14,000+ police were assaulted with injuries (note that this eliminates pushing, but also "grazed my leg while I had him in a chokehold" assaults - those are at about 53,000).4.3% were assaulted with firearms. Again, rather small percentage. So, "yes" again.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Yeah because a 28 foot wide residential street is so much wider than a 20 foot wide residential street, 28 feet clearly makes it a busy boulevard.

Actually I would go by the lane markings. No line down the middle = very little traffic. White line, a bit more traffic, yellow line, even more traffic, double white line, even more traffic and double yellow, maximum traffic. The shooting scene road had a double yellow line.

I don't know about you but where I live a no line road is a street with houses and is not used by most people to get from point A to point B unless they actually live on that street (I live on such a street). A single yellow line is a feeder road to the no line at all streets. The closest intersection to me is such a street (and happens to be much less wider than my street). The streets with double yellow lines are main roads on which pretty much everyone drives on to get to the feeder roads which go to the no line roads. The street behind where I live is one of those streets (and is about as wide as my no line street).

I guess my point is that width isn't always an indication of how much traffic uses the road but traffic markings usually are. The crime scene and memorial photos all show a double yellow line so take that as you will.

 

[davefoc]

[See above]

That is exactly consistent with my experience of the way things are in Southern California where I live.

 

[Cain]

Pretty much. Are you going to accuse the ap developer of being in on the conspiracy now?

Why would I do that? I decided not to comment on the audio at all until it was confirmed. Now it's confirmed.

There's three sets of shots. One in the car, some more while giving chase, then four more which are likely the fatal shots. Josie claimed that between sets two and three, Brown stopped and taunted Wilson and then charged him. The tape makes that impossible since there is not enough time for this to have occurred.

I initially felt the same way: the bullet-pattern seems to contradict her story. But not necessarily. "Josie" never claims Wilson fired while Brown's back was turned. One reason I found her account compelling is that she correctly anticipated the autopsy: no bullets in the back; the fatal shot was to the forehead.

She did not say, Wilson fires, Brown stops, taunts, bum-rushes. Instead:

Brown flees, gets about thirty-five feet away. Turns around, taunts Wilson, then "bum-rushes." Wilson squeezes off six rounds, but Brown's still coming. Unbelievable. Wilson fires four more times.

Considering Brown had been hit six times, it's completely plausible Wilson fired more than half-a-dozen times.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is the consensus right now that the first shot on the recording is the shot in the car?...

No. I don't see how the first single shot is on the recording. There's not enough time for a shot and then Wilson to get out of the car.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually I would go by the lane markings. No line down the middle = very little traffic. White line, a bit more traffic, yellow line, even more traffic, double white line, even more traffic and double yellow, maximum traffic. The shooting scene road had a double yellow line.

I don't know about you but where I live a no line road is a street with houses and is not used by most people to get from point A to point B unless they actually live on that street (I live on such a street). A single yellow line is a feeder road to the no line at all streets. The closest intersection to me is such a street (and happens to be much less wider than my street). The streets with double yellow lines are main roads on which pretty much everyone drives on to get to the feeder roads which go to the no line roads. The street behind where I live is one of those streets (and is about as wide as my no line street).

I guess my point is that width isn't always an indication of how much traffic uses the road but traffic markings usually are. The crime scene and memorial photos all show a double yellow line so take that as you will.

Not much traffic? The street in front of my house is considered a "busy" residential street. You could still walk down the middle and only see cars sporadically.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...But not necessarily. "Josie" never claims Wilson fired while Brown's back was turned. One reason I found her account compelling is that she correctly anticipated the autopsy: no bullets in the back; the fatal shot was to the forehead.

Except the autopsy does not confirm no shots from the back, and the shot to the forehead is at an angle with Brown's head horizontal, not vertical.

...She did not say, Wilson fires, Brown stops, taunts, bum-rushes. Instead:

Brown flees, gets about thirty-five feet away. Turns around, taunts Wilson, then "bum-rushes." Wilson squeezes off six rounds, but Brown's still coming. Unbelievable. Wilson fires four more times.

Considering Brown had been hit six times, it's completely plausible Wilson fired more than half-a-dozen times.

I think it's been confirmed Wilson fired more than the 6 shots that definitely hit Brown.

In your scenario, what made Brown turn around? If he wasn't being shot at, wasn't hit, and didn't believe Wilson would really shoot, why not just keep running?

 

[This is The End]

There seems to be no disagreement that he shot and killed Brown. It is only reasonable that he have a chance to defend himself for that action and be held accountable if need be.

Very well put.

He should have the best possible chance to clearly present the evidence that the shooting was justified.

If it was not justified the state should have the best possible chance to clearly present the evidence to hold him accountable.

Innocent until proven guilty. (Which, btw, I'm sure we all remember from the Zimmerman case that it is "innocent until proven guilty", and the alternative is innocent until proven "not guilty". The opposite is not innocent until "proven innocent". In the USA vary rarely is someone made officially innocent of something, they are merely made not guilty.)

 

[Cain]

Except the autopsy does not confirm no shots from the back, and the shot to the forehead is at an angle with Brown's head horizontal, not vertical.

I thought we've been over the shots to the back. Baden said one shot could have entered from the back, but an astute commenter pointed out that it's unlikely you have a bullet pattern on Brown's right back-side and his right front side. The more plausible explanation is that all the shots came around the same time, which is more consistent with the audio anyway. As for the angle of the presumably fatal shot, it's consistent if Brown's head was down, or if Brown put his head down because he ad sustained five shots, or if had began to stumble.

Not that it needs pointing out, but I should say the bullet pattern is not consistent with the execution-style slaying people first started reporting. Wilson just unloads into the side of Brown's body, then caps it off with a shot to the top of the head. If Brown had been executed, then an on-your-knees shot to the top of the head would come first, then what? Wilson rolled the body over, hit Brown five more times, then rolled it back.

If he wasn't being shot at, wasn't hit, and didn't believe Wilson would really shoot, why not just keep running?

He's almost 300lbs. He's not getting far. "Big Mike" didn't even run after he robbed the convenience store. He's not a long-distance runner.

 

[davefoc]

No. I don't see how the first single shot is on the recording. There's not enough time for a shot and then Wilson to get out of the car.

So what's the answer to boooeee's question? Why wasn't the shot inside the car heard? Muffled by the car? recording wasn't active when it happened?

I'm sure this has been covered but what kind of gun did Wilson have and how many rounds could it fire? I noticed the question about one in the chamber above. Was that because it was a Glock with a magazine that held ten rounds and there could be one more round in the chamber, so that it is conceivable that Wilson could have fired eleven rounds?

 

[This is The End]

A police officer is in an adreline-fueled state of panic/fear/anger after being assaulted by a physically imposing robbery suspect. The suspect flees, and in the span of seconds - without any time to think - he squeezes the trigger more times than reasonable force allows.

He could also have been mad at a derogatory comment that Brown said to him. There are any number of ways to piss off a police officer. It is up to the police officer to remain calm and follow the book.

For those who cannot read: I am not saying this is what happened. Someone asked for others to offer them a hypothetical alternate scenario. johnny karate did so and I expanded upon that. That is us answering a question, not giving our opinion or best guess.

 

[This is The End]

That scenario would be justified by virtue of without any time to think.

In many jurisdictions that would not count as justification. It would only provide some leniency.

 

[Cylinder]

I'm sure this has been covered but what kind of gun did Wilson have and how many rounds could it fire? I noticed the question about one in the chamber above. Was that because it was a Glock with a magazine that held ten rounds and there could be one more round in the chamber, so that it is conceivable that Wilson could have fired eleven rounds?

FNC's Greta van Susteren claimed the FPD issue sidearm was the Sig P229 .40 -- which is 12+1 (twelve in the mag + 1 in the pipe.) It is not uncommon for LEOs to use a different firearm than their issue weapon because of familiarity, fit, sight preference, etc...