Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

After arguing ad-nauseam that the street couldn't be much more than 20 feet, and continuing to argue when shown evidence it was at least 25.....

I like how you all walked the busy boulevard because Google maps proved it back to claiming we were only arguing over 8 feet.

 

[Reheat]

My take is that two people on an ego trip collided. One of them was Brown, the other was officer Wilson. Wilson gets in Brown's face to show him who is the boss. Brown loses his temper and throws a punch. Wilson responds by pulling out his firearm and shooting at the retreating Brown. Brown raises his hands in surrender and Wilson goes for the kill.

If Wilson shot Brown after Brown raised his hands to surrender, this isn't a justified homicide.

Agreed with the last sentence, but you left out the leak that there is proof that Brown touched Wilson's side arm. I take that to mean there are either finger prints or DNA on that pistol. If that is true, does that change the narrative?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The images of guys on their knees with hands behind their head demonstrating together and shouting "I am Mike Brown!" were certainly eye-roll-inducing.

There was video on the local news last week when the riots were going on. It was from a camera on the street looking north (lets say), and all the police in riot gear were looking north, and marching north, about 50 yards down the street. Other police are running that way.

And then there's the white guy. I'm sure he's there to score points with his friends at the fair trade coffee co-op, to show that he understands the plight of the black people, etc. He's walking down the street, in the same direction as the police, with his hands up, his head swiveling from side to side (he even turned around a couple of times), in the desperate hope that some cop, somewhere, would take note of his "resistance". It was pathetic. I almost died laughing.

 

[jhunter1163]

Oh yeah, and you have to make Brown a violent felon for stealing cigars and pushing the store clerk.

And, don't forget, assaulting the police officer.

 

[theprestige]

Should she have shot him?

I'm going with "yes".

Was backup on the way?

"Backup is only five minutes away. Feel free to keep getting beaten to death until they arrive."

I'm not sure we'll get too far with unrelated incidents of violence.

I'm not sure we'll get too far with unrelated incidents of police brutality and corruption, either, but that doesn't seem to stop people from trying to introduce them into evidence.

If it were up to me, the only relevant considerations in this thread right now would be testimony of the shooting itself, evidence of the shooting itself, and anything relevant in the backgrounds of Wilson and Brown (the more relevant, the better, but that's subjective and I won't be too butthurt if people exercise a lot of leeway in what they deem relevant).

Background material on the FPD? Couldn't care less. There'll be time enough for that later in the proceedings. Background material on the witnesses? Couldn't care less. We'll have plenty of opportunity to impeach them later on.

 

[Lerxst]

Bias: as in you reading something in my posts I've not said.

As far as Wilson knew at first, Brown and Johnson were doing nothing bad enough to warrant confronting them. Especially given that is lousy policing to be overly aggressive like that when an antagonistic relationship with the citizens already exists.

Notice how much differently Captain Johnson handled the situation in Ferguson compared to the antagonistic way the cops initially handled the situation?

See how your confirmation bias changed what I actually said?

And after the first contact, if Wilson did hear the robbery report, had he not initially confronted the two and set the situation up, he could have more easily approached them. Or, if he hadn't gotten his jock strap in a bunch he might have properly approached the two, calling for back up and/or stopping a distance away and ordering them down on the ground before screeching his car back and opening the door too close to them.

Cops claim they have people get down on the ground for everyone's safety. Too bad Wilson didn't do that this time.


Again, please pay attention, I said 20 or 28 feet wide is still a narrow residential street.

Notice how I did not say it didn't matter that it was a residential street.


Now you are being completely dishonest.

A minor crime of theft and shoving a store clerk: Person should be charged with that crime. They should not be shot for it.

Walking in the middle of a residential street: not something any cop should waste his/her time on unless there was something additional involved.

Someone please tell me how a 20 vs 28 foot wide street makes a difference. Because they are both still narrow residential streets, not some busy heavily trafficked boulevard.

I can't believe anyone looking at those pictures thinks someone walking in that street calls for a cop harassing them.

Oh wait, I forgot about the racism colored glasses. Now I get it.

I'm not reading anything into what you said. You are quite clear and unambiguous.

You don't get to tell us what Wilson was thinking, nor could you possibly know. You also don't get to decide what he should have let go and what he shouldn't have. Your judgment of and label of this situation as "lousy policing" is based on nothing but your personal opinion, one that seems to be heavily weighted against law enforcement in general. In other words, there doesn't seem to be any possible choice that Wilson could have made here other than to drive on by and say nothing.

So please then, if I'm being dishonest, tell us what "good policing" is, in your expert opinion.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I can't imagine the police allowing people to walk on that double yellow line.

I really can't.

The police in my town would not allow it.

If they saw me doing it, they would make me get out of the road.

Yes, but you don't have a failed narrative to defend.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Or Wilson moved to a different position.

I realize we have been snarking back and forth, but please accept this reply as being a serious request for you to consider my response...


How far do you think Wilson would have to move before the sound difference we hear in the audio to be apparent?

I'm thinking maybe hundreds of feet, or a significant change in acoustics, such as moving behind an obstacle.

Did the crime scene include such distances or barriers?

Perhaps one of our fire-arm experts could chime in..

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, but you don't have a failed narrative to defend.

I can just hear my Dad...after the cops brought me home for refusing to get out of the road.

Thanks officer.
Oh, I'll take care of it alright!
It won't happen again.

Of course, I was never stupid enough or arrogant enough to walk down the middle of the road...certainly not by the time I was 18.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I looked up "2900 Canfield Dr, Ferguson MO" on Google Maps, and I see a wide street, one with double yellow lines down the middle (that indicate a no-passing zone) and with sidewalks on both sides....

The middle of a street with curves, busy enough to require double yellow no passing lines, ...

In the initial reports of the shooting, the street I had pictured was just like the link you provided! Yes, you can play basketball, stickball and hockey here...maybe even walk down the middle of the street. Not on Canfield Drive.

Looks wide here though:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/15/1408116848048_wps_9_DO_NOT_USE_Michael_Brown_.jpg

By following what I see on Google Street View, I'm not limited by the perspective of the photograph and where it was taken from.

For reference, I'm linking to another street 9137 Ellison Dr. that's just off Canfield Dr, and is a much narrower street, complete with basketball hoop. Note the distinct lack of yellow lines, and parking on both sides of the street. On Canfield Dr, I can't find any areas on Google Street View that shows vehicles parked on the side of the road.... Was it necessary for Wilson to stop them? Maybe they were weaving over the double yellow line...speaking of which:

"No Passing" had better mean "No Passing," this is a pretty universal way we mark pavement in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_yellow_line
There's a Double Yellow all the way from Florissant to well past the scene of the incident.

Most residential streets don't have a double-yellow line in the middle. As I pointed out ages ago, this is a side street directly off the main drag in Ferguson, connecting a bunch of apartment complexes to the shopping areas....

...The road is a normal two lane divided road. It's not especially narrow, or especially wide. It is unremarkable....

I do. But not one with double yellow lines. There were no lines at all.

I'm so glad everyone now agrees, it was a residential street something less than 28 feet wide.

 

[LTC8K6]

If Wilson fired 11 shots, there should be cones or evidence markers all over the road.

The most I can count are 6 cones. 3 near the SUV, and 3 near Brown. And two of those near the SUV appear to be marking a hat and a cigar box.

It is possible that some of the brass could not be found immediately, though.
They are small and tend to bounce and roll on pavement.

I am getting the idea that Wilson was retreating and firing. I'm beginning to think that as Brown was advancing, Wilson was retreating.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm so glad everyone now agrees, it was a residential street something less than 28 feet wide.

That's it, I am getting on a plane for Ferguson, with a Lufkin, and settling this!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I realize we have been snarking back and forth, but please accept this reply as being a serious request for you to consider my response...


How far do you think Wilson would have to move before the sound difference we hear in the audio to be apparent?

I'm thinking maybe hundreds of feet, or a significant change in acoustics, such as moving behind an obstacle.

Did the crime scene include such distances or barriers?

Perhaps one of our fire-arm experts could chime in..

First off, I don't hear a major change in the sound of those shots. But Wilson was running toward Brown, the audio is 12 seconds long, and it was argued upstream in this thread that you could move a fair distance in 12 seconds.

We don't know where the audio was recorded except that it was in the neighborhood. Wilson could have easily moved where a car or tree or any number of things were between the recording device and the gun.

Wilson's position when shooting will be revealed by the casings, we don't need the audio. What's important on that recording is the pause.

 

[Lerxst]

I think it confirms my estimate. Maybe the street is 24 feet wide. Anything under 28 feet doesn't change the actual issue, it was a residential street most cops would not bother telling anyone walking in to get out of.

BTW, I did get a chuckle out of the joke.

Anything other than a personal anecdote and your own opinion to back this up? Or is this simply a matter of my anecdote is better than yours?

 

[carlitos]

Someone please tell me how a 20 vs 28 foot wide street makes a difference. Because they are both still narrow residential streets, not some busy heavily trafficked boulevard.

I can't believe anyone looking at those pictures thinks someone walking in that street calls for a cop harassing them.

Oh wait, I forgot about the racism colored glasses. Now I get it.

I'm still flabbergasted about why people should walk down the street and not the sidewalk?

A minor crime of theft and shoving a store clerk:

What the hell? If you worked in a store, and someone came in, shoved you and stole something, that would be a 'minor crime?' How about assault and battery, which is a felony?

Walking in the middle of a residential street: not something any cop should waste his/her time on unless there was something additional involved.

Clueless. Absolutely clueless.

Oh yeah, and you have to make Brown a violent felon for stealing cigars and pushing the store clerk. Can't forget the black thug narrative.

What in the hell else would you call someone that assaulted a store clerk and stole cigars? A model citizen?

 

[Unabogie]

If Wilson fired 11 shots, there should be cones or evidence markers all over the road.

The most I can count are 6 cones. 3 near the SUV, and 3 near Brown. And two of those near the SUV appear to be marking a hat and a cigar box.

It is possible that some of the brass could not be found immediately, though.
They are small and tend to bounce and roll on pavement.

I am getting the idea that Wilson was retreating and firing. I'm beginning to think that as Brown was advancing, Wilson was retreating.

How can you just be beginning to think what you've thought all along?

Yes, the witnesses who saw Wilson run after Brown WHILE SHOOTING, and the police captain's own description that Wilson ran after Brown WHILE SHOOTING are all wrong. It was Brown who was advancing, which you've deduced by counting the number of cones you see in a partial photo of the scene.

 

[LTC8K6]

How can you just be beginning to think what you've thought all along?

Yes, the witnesses who saw Wilson run after Brown WHILE SHOOTING, and the police captain's own description that Wilson ran after Brown WHILE SHOOTING are all wrong. It was Brown who was advancing, which you've deduced by counting the number of cones you see in a partial photo of the scene.

I didn't think about Wilson retreating until I saw the cones near Brown's body. It was not that far upthread. I posted a pic and mentioned retreating.

It wasn't the number of cones, there's only three, but their positions.

It is however, as another poster said, difficult to see the brass in the pics.

 

[Lerxst]

I'm still flabbergasted about why people should walk down the street and not the sidewalk?



What the hell? If you worked in a store, and someone came in, shoved you and stole something, that would be a 'minor crime?' How about assault and battery, which is a felony?


Clueless. Absolutely clueless.


What in the hell else would you call someone that assaulted a store clerk and stole cigars? A model citizen?

Although it's been pointed out many times that the law has two very well defined terms that distinguish minor crimes from major ones, she still is insistent that it's a minor crime. If you say otherwise, you're a racist or biased.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's it, I am getting on a plane for Ferguson, with a Lufkin, and settling this!

Ha! I measured my street, it's marked with a yellow center line, (they don't use paint they use reflectors), and it's a designated collector street (arterial if you wish).

Here it is again:
[imgw=400]http://i.imgur.com/4HnV9FN.png[/imgw]

Guess how wide it is?

Each lane is 11 feet wide so 22 feet from white stripe to white stripe. And those shoulders are not there further down the street so they are not part of the street.

 

[LTC8K6]

Could some of the gunshots be echoes?