Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

Looks to be a late model Chevy Tahoe, which would be 17 feet long, btw.

Given the SUV at a perpendicular angle across a single lane sticks well into the opposite lane, that makes the street about 20 feet wide then, from curb to curb. Pretty narrow.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I did not see the autopsy press conference.

Was the addition of the red mark explained?

It's not on the original autopsy drawing, or the one published in the NYT.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1...e.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg

That was the arm graze that could have come from the front or the back. Much as everyone reported all the shots entered from the front, Baden said that one shot could have been from the front or the back.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Given the SUV at a perpendicular angle across a single lane sticks well into the opposite lane, that makes the street about 20 feet wide then, from curb to curb. Pretty narrow.

Why is a narrow(er) street an argument for pedestrian traffic; particularly when sidewalks are provided, which is clearly not the case in your example above?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yeah, except in the real estate biz instead of the blood biz they're called arterials, ....

Another designation for an arteriole is a collector road. The street in front of my house is not the same as the arterial that it connects to.

 

[casebro]

I was bored last night, and decided to look up the St Louis County vehicle codes, and came across this (rather technical) description on how roads are to be constructed, the widths involved, and other details. The standard width of a lane is supposed to be 12 feet on a highway, and in a residential street, the lane should be 10 feet. On some residential streets, there are simply lanes to park, and a lane down the middle for traffic to pass by. Canfield Drive wasn't one of those streets, and I still don't understand why they were walking in the street.

So did you spot the part about walking in the street and obstructing traffic while doing so?

Or the SOP that if there are no sidewalks it's ok to walk in the street- on the side facing traffic so you can see what is coming at you?

 

[LTC8K6]

Given the SUV at a perpendicular angle across a single lane sticks well into the opposite lane, that makes the street about 20 feet wide then, from curb to curb. Pretty narrow.

Except that it does not stick well into the opposite lane at all...

It barely makes it into the opposite lane, as anyone can see:

 

[LTC8K6]

That was the arm graze that could have come from the front or the back. Much as everyone reported all the shots entered from the front, Baden said that one shot could have been from the front or the back.

Why wasn't it on the original document?

 

[Reheat]

Why is a narrow(er) street an argument for pedestrian traffic; particularly when sidewalks are provided, which is clearly not the case in your example above?

But, but, but.....

Obviously, the narrower the street, the more reason someone walking in the middle would block traffic. Duh!

The Northwinds Apt complex where the culprits lived has some 400 apartments and according to the St. Louis newspaper feature article posted previously it is a hotbed of crime. Is it any wonder a police car was patrolling there? Isn't it rather obvious that if the police car was patrolling there, that two people walking in the middle of the street would block the police car? This argument is so stupid I can't believe it's still being argued, let alone an issue in the first place. Someone must be getting desperate to find evidence of police harassment for no reason....

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Note the sound of crickets despite the narrow street argument having been put forward several times..

 

[TheL8Elvis]

When was Johnson charged with lying to police?<snip>

What is it you say .... Do try and keep up with the thread ?

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

Johnson was apparently charged with filing a false police report in 2011.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have no idea if this is what happened in this particular case. When I initially read the article, I pictured a busy road. After I saw the road, my imagination filled in the gap with a common occurrence in my neighborhood. Because it is very similar to the traffic and size of how you described your street, the teens aren't all that concerned with safety. Admittedly, I don't use the sidewalks, either, because there are a lot of overhanging trees and lots of webs to walk through but I stay to the side--a lot of the kids around here don't. They look right at you and keep on walking, sometimes completely blocking you from passing. Because I live in a very mixed neighborhood I can say with certainty that it is a teen thing and not a race, thing. Obviously, that says nothing for the guilt or innocence of Wilson, it's just what I identified with when they said Wilson yelled, "Get the **** out of the road!"

I agree it's a teen thing. And I understand people would like on occasion to use expletives when someone is in your way in the street.

But when a police officer uses that tactic, it's going to have one of two reactions. Either an expletive back, or cowering in fear of the cop and getting off the street. Why use it? Why not politely ask and try for a non-confrontational approach? The polite approach would seem like more intelligent policing to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That was the arm graze that could have come from the front or the back. Much as everyone reported all the shots entered from the front, Baden said that one shot could have been from the front or the back.

So ... when he was running away, wilson shot him on the right side of his body, but facing him, wilson shot him on the left side.

With the shot groupings ... does that really seem reasonable to you ?

ETA: to the right and left side from wilsons persepctive , not actually of browns body

 

[Lerxst]

When was Johnson charged with lying to police?

And given Wilson was fired along with the whole department he worked for to address a severe racism problem, four Ferguson police withdrew their claims their uniforms were bled on when challenged to provide evidence, there is evidence of racism in nearby area police departments, and, most importantly we know the encounter was confrontational.

It's hard to see why the default position is here Brown and Johnson were solely responsible for that confrontational interaction.


As for the street, it's narrower than the one that runs in front of my house. The street in front of my house is a residential street that is designated an arteriole.
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/4HnV9FN.png[/qimg]

Those lane markers are yellow. People walk in that street. Some kid was riding a ride-on lawnmower in the street and my neighbor told a cop that was parked on the street for another reason. His answer was it wasn't something that needed addressing.


Was it reasonable for Wilson to ask? That depends. Has there been an issue on that street? Were cars having to drive around them? That has not been mentioned so it's unlikely.

Or, as there is evidence of, were the cops in Ferguson in the habit of hassling young black men in the area?

Was Wilson having a bad day? Was it his usual attitude to be a jerk whenever he approached young black men? We've all seen cops on videos overreacting to someone who dared challenge a cop's authority.

I don't understand why that version of events is so unlikely. Given the extensive history of racism among the police in the area, it seems to me it is just as likely Wilson was overly confrontational as it is these two young men were as belligerent as is being assumed.

It depends? On which laws you think that LE should arbitrarily enforce? Your picture and anecdote is completely irrelevant.

And it's not the "default position"...they were breaking the law and failed to comply with Wilson's instructions to get out of the road. The behavior of these two men is not assumed here, it's not even disputed by Johnson so I'm not sure why you continue to make an argument that Wilson should have just drove by and not said anything. It's a judgment call that we pay LEOs to make, you don't have a say in it I'm afraid.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've been working in downtown St. Louis the past 2 months, never previously having been to MO. I've never seen a city where jaywalking is so routinely practiced, to the point where I've had several conversations about it. The other day there were a couple of cops standing at an intersection, and everyone still jaywalked.

Maybe someone who lives in the area can say -- is it like this when you get out of downtown?

So given that observation, why would a cop choose to yell at these two walking on that residential street if the norm is for cops to ignore jaywalkers on busy streets downtown?

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.firerescue1.com/firefigh...rst-responders-handled-the-ferguson-shooting/

Didn't see this video posted, from EMS at the scene.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Except that it does not stick well into the opposite lane at all...

It barely makes it into the opposite lane, as anyone can see:

[qimg]http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c233/2c6zieuv5leixa16g.jpg[/qimg]

It's also not perpendicular. If it were it would stick well into the other lane.

If it's 17 feet long, that street is not much wider than 20 feet. Unless one is hallucinating.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why wasn't it on the original document?

What original document?

Baden explained that the confusion came when the reporters misunderstood the fact the diagram is an anatomical diagram. It's not a reference as to how those limbs were oriented when struck.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's also not perpendicular. If it were it would stick well into the other lane.

If it's 17 feet long, that street is not much wider than 20 feet. Unless one is hallucinating.

I think it would stick out less if we park it straight across the lane.

We already covered the angle, it's ~18 feet corner to corner.

If I cared anymore, I would put a Franklin on the road being between 25 and 30 feet wide.

 

[Mike!]

I agree it's a teen thing. And I understand people would like on occasion to use expletives when someone is in your way in the street.

But when a police officer uses that tactic, it's going to have one of two reactions. Either an expletive back, or cowering in fear of the cop and getting off the street. Why use it? Why not politely ask and try for a non-confrontational approach? The polite approach would seem like more intelligent policing to me.

So we now know conclusively that Wilson cussed them, without doubt or question, we know it, right? When did this unimpeachable fact come to light, exactly?

 

[Skeletor]

So did you spot the part about walking in the street and obstructing traffic while doing so?

Or the SOP that if there are no sidewalks it's ok to walk in the street- on the side facing traffic so you can see what is coming at you?

The link I shared is mostly technical stuff about how roads are constructed, no specific laws. However, all of the drawings include sidewalks in the plans!

When I walk on the sidewalk, I tend to use the left-hand side, so I'm facing traffic. We've had so many accidents here that involve vehicles veering off the road onto the sidewalk that I'd rather not take a chance. What you speak of is common sense, which appears not to be a common virtue in this case.