Michael Brown Shooting

[Ladewig]

The instantaneous amassing of protests, riots and looting sans any

I am rather surprised that you grouped these three things together. A protest is so very, very different from rioting and looting that it seems strange to me to suggest a peaceful protest is evidence that a black community is willing to throw away MLK's vision and hope.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Smart people avoid the police like they avoid tornados, hurricanes and the like.

That's a pretty sad commentary on the current, perceived state of police and/or police-citizen relations.

 

[casebro]

if some recuses himself! the replacement is not selected by the people who yelled the loudest. The replacement is chosen at random.

No, the replacement would have been chosen by the Gov, then the hatchet job would begin.

Also, I must ask what your definition of " pre-determined political hatchet job" is. Are you implying the the court system is so broken that a biased prosecutor trying to fulfill a political objective could bring about the conviction of an innocent man?

An example is the Zimmerman case. The whole trial was a " biased (special) prosecutor trying to fulfill a political objective ". The case was unprovable, that is why the DA was bypassed by another who sent the case to the grand jury. THEN the gov sent in "a biased prosecutor trying to fulfill a political objective " who cancelled the grand jury and took it to a public trial. Where Z was found innocent.

Personally I approve of the way things are going in Mosura.

 

[ProBonoShill]

This incident appears to be unbelievably bad. There's two sides to every story but it's hard to imagine what the Ferguson PD's side is, other than to deny everything. This is from the suit that was filed:


The plaintiff went on to say, that EMS was summoned and they took him to an ER. However at the hospital they refused to render treatment because the plaintiff was insisting on having his injuries photographed, which request they refused.

Only if you are completely biased. You should really try doing something about that, this is a critical thinking forum after all.

From the trial transcripts:

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1276905/davis-order.pdf

Around 3:00 a.m. on the morning of
September 20, 2009, Officer Beaird arrested Mr. Davis on suspicion of driving while intoxicated.
Mr. Davis did not complete a sobriety test.

He said if he did not receive a mat, he would not enter the cell. Officer Pillarick told Mr. Davis
he would not receive a mat. One of the officers called for back up.Officers White, Tihen, and Ballard responded. They asked Mr. Davis why he would not enter the cell. Mr. Davis responded
that someone was already in it and he had not received a mat.

Records show that Mr. Davis presented with a laceration to his
forehead but paramedics did not treat him because he was yelling and screaming profanities.2

Records show that, at the emergency room, Officer White complained that a prisoner had punched him in the face. After a CT scan, Officer White was diagnosed with a Nasal Fracture(broken nose). Medical personnel noted blood on his uniform.

Mr. Davis denies that he was belligerent toward the paramedics or medical personnel at
Christian Hospital, but the evidence of his behavior is so one-sided that the Court cannot credit his account, even at the summary judgment stage

Mr. Davis was charged with Driving While Intoxicated, Speeding, Failure to Drive in a Single Lane, No Proof of Insurance, Failure to Obey Police Officer, and four counts of Destruction of City Property. As a result of plea negotiations,
Driving While Intoxicated was reduced to Careless and Imprudent Driving, Failure to Drive in a
Single Lane and No Proof of Insurance were reduced to non-moving violations, and the four
counts of Destruction of City Property were reduced to two counts. In sum, Mr. Davis pled
guilty to Careless and Imprudent Driving, Speeding, two non-moving violations, Failure to Obey
Police Officer, and two counts of Destruction of City Property

It only gets worse from here and I'm probably very close to breaking forum rules already so I won't quote more.

Short version, drunk guy is instructed to enter cell, refuses because he isn't getting mat, when jail personnel attempt to put him there physically he breaks an officers nose while getting hurt himself. When he gets to the hospital he's so belligerent the medical staff don't want to deal with him.

Sounds like an upstanding individual.







ETA: Highlighting mine and the correction of multiple typing errors.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Only if you are completely biased. You really try doing something about that, this is a critical thinking forum after all.

From the trial transcripts:

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1276905/davis-order.pdf













It only gets worse from here and I'm probably very close to breaking forum rules already so I won't quote more.

Short version, drunk guy is instructed to enter cell, refuse because he is getting mat, when jail personal attempt to put him there physically he breaks an officers nose while getting hurt himself. When he gets to the hospital he's so belligerent the medical staff don't want to deal with him.

Sounds like an upstanding individual.

I see this guy every week. Screaming about injustice, threatening everyone with lawsuits, knows someone who knows the barber of the hospital CEO and he'll see to it everyone is gonna lose their jobs, has to have his phone removed because he keeps calling 911 and telling them he's being held against his will.

I seriously see this guy every week. Especially during football season.

 

[Wolrab]

He's a poseur. He totally copied the barber of REO.

 

[dudalb]

Well, Brown sent Wilson to the hospital and Wilson sent Brown to the morgue.

Who said Brown was dumb?

Early reports said he was going to college next year, haven't heard much of that lately.

Smart people avoid the police like they avoid tornados, hurricanes and the like.

At least his guy is open that he hates cops, unlike some others in this thread...

 

[RedPillNeo]

Testing your knowledge of HVAC hazards, what's the prob with smoking around freon? Explosion?

Chlorinated refrigerants (R12, to a lesser extent R22) decompose to phosgene in the presence of combustion.

When R12 was introduced, its "safety" was famously demonstrated by breathing a lungful, and exhaling gently to extinguish a candle. Breathing refrigerant-containing air isn't harmful, but running it through a burning cigarette first is a different ballgame!

R134a is "flammable" but at pressures above 1 bar (but below 2 bar.)

 

[newyorkguy]

Only if you are completely biased. You should really try doing something about that, this is a critical thinking forum after all.

From the trial transcripts:
September 20, 2009, Officer Beaird arrested Mr. Davis on suspicion of driving while intoxicated. Mr. Davis did not complete a sobriety test.
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1276905/davis-order.pdf

I said there's two sides to every story "but it's hard to imagine what the Ferguson PD's side is, other than to deny everything." So apparently that's what they. They denied everything. Did they actually charge Davis with DWI? It doesn't seem clear that they did. The video cameras in the jail area were broken. I've read that one before. Why weren't they fixed? The implication is made Davis broke an officer's nose. Was he charged with that?

There is no video of the incident despite the fact that the jail is equipped with video cameras. Nor are there any photos beyond the booking photo taken of Mr. Davis. There is no testimony from other detainees.

Maybe, as you were kind enough to suggest, my critical thinking skills need a tune-up, you could be right, but I'm not prepared to accept everything police say is the truth merely because police say it.

 

[casebro]

Chlorinated refrigerants (R12, to a lesser extent R22) decompose to phosgene in the presence of combustion.

When R12 was introduced, its "safety" was famously demonstrated by breathing a lungful, and exhaling gently to extinguish a candle. Breathing refrigerant-containing air isn't harmful, but running it through a burning cigarette first is a different ballgame!

R134a is "flammable" but at pressures above 1 bar (but below 2 bar.)

Yeah, I was charging a car one time. It had a leak in a hose in front of the engine air intake. Great way to track which way the exhaust was blowing, by the nose burning.

I wonder id it cleaned the carbon off the valves?

 

[newyorkguy]

I see this guy every week. <snip>

I'd bet it's a different Henry Davis. Apparently the Ferguson PD made the same mistake. You do seem willing to jump on any bandwagon that comes along providing it supports the official point of view. I'm not sure that proves lack of bias. If you agree, don't respond!

 

[ProBonoShill]

I said there's two sides to every story "but it's hard to imagine what the Ferguson PD's side is, other than to deny everything." So apparently that's what they. They denied everything. Did they actually charge Davis with DWI? It doesn't seem clear that they did. The video cameras in the jail area were broken. I've read that one before. Why weren't they fixed? The implication is made Davis broke an officer's nose. Was he charged with that?

I'm finding it hard to take you seriously when you can't even be bothered to read my post and the trial transcript where your questions were answered already.

I guess you think the paramedics and hospital staff are lying too.

Maybe, as you were kind enough to suggest, my critical thinking skills need a tune-up, you could be right, but I'm not prepared to accept everything police say is the truth merely because police say it.

And I'm not prepared to take the word of a drunken criminal who is belligerent and uncooperative.

 

[newyorkguy]

I'm finding it hard to take you seriously when you can't even be bothered to read my and the trial transcript post where your questions were answered already. <snip>

Why are you so defensive, it's your link. Obviously I looked at it: I pasted a quote from it, right. If you don't want to discuss what's in it fine.

 

[bobdroege7]

At least his guy is open that he hates cops, unlike some others in this thread...

Hates a little strong,

but I'm not a 100% law abiding citizen.

Back in the day, I got my car stuck on the beach in Daytona, and an officer helped me get unstuck. No ticket no arrest, although that could have been the logical outcome, wasn't a smart day for me.

Most interactions with the police are not pleasant, should I complain about driving while while or being in the armed services when interacting with the police?

I also avoid gambling, buy a lottery ticket and call it voluntary taxed, I like to know the outcome of a situation beforehand, dealing with the police is a gamble.

I say avoid them, like by doing the following

Rodney, obey the speed limit and find a designated driver.
Don't sell individual cigarettes, if that is against the law.

etc

And in addition to phosgene gas there is hydrofluoric acid and hydrochloric acid to worry about.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Why are you so defensive, it's your link. Obviously I looked at it: I pasted a quote from it, right. If you don't want to discuss what's in it fine.

Really?

From my original response to you (I even highlighted it for you):

Mr. Davis was charged with Driving While Intoxicated,Speeding, Failure to Drive in a Single Lane, No Proof of Insurance, Failure to Obey Police
Officer, and four counts of Destruction of City Property

Your reply:

I said there's two sides to every story "but it's hard to imagine what the Ferguson PD's side is, other than to deny everything." So apparently that's what they. They denied everything. Did they actually charge Davis with DWI? It doesn't seem clear that they did. The video cameras in the jail area were broken. I've read that one before. Why weren't they fixed? The implication is made Davis broke an officer's nose. Was he charged with that?

 

[davefoc]

It's like asking, do I think cops ever have the right to shoot in self defense? Of course they do.

It's assumed around here by people that argue by demeaning others that I've just taken the side I have because Wilson was a cop.

There were three witnesses that came forward at the time of the shooting telling similar stories.

Yes, eye witness testimony isn't perfect. It should be taken with a grain of salt but that doesn't mean it should be completely discounted. Heck, if that was the case, why is Wilson's account of any value?

Wilson's story, if what we are hearing is his story, is not credible, IMO.

Then there's the autopsy finding: four flesh wounds, one that might have re-entered the chest and two fatal shots entering the top of the head.

It fits the most credible of the three witnesses accounts, Tiffany Mitchell's, almost exactly. Brown was surrendering when two more shots were fired.

None of the evidence we have so far is supporting Wilson's actions as reasonable use of force.

This is not about hating cops or being biased about cops. It's about believing the witnesses as there is, as of yet, no reason not to.

And on top of that you have wild claims of a dozen witnesses supporting Wilson's story (no there isn't), the recording of the witness who saw Brown moving toward Wilson is being claimed to say something it does not say, and a story that grew and grew from Wilson had an orbital blowout fracture to he was severely beaten to he was beaten nearly unconscious when we can see in the videos after the shooting that he does not look in distress and his injury was described as facial swelling.

People make stuff up and tell the doubters there's no evidence it's not true, so the doubters can't say it isn't. That's a tactic seen time and time again by woo promoters.

Thank you for the thoughtful comments. Before I read your posts I had not read through the eyewitness statements in detail. I found this site that had them all in one place:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...ess_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html

I agree that these statements are compelling. Of course, there is so much we don't know here and even these statements are not delivered in an official context and the witnesses obviously have not been cross examined. Even in the face of those statements I still doubt that Wilson fired on Brown while he was clearly attempting to surrender, but it seems more likely now than it did before.

I also tried to find something on the statements that were captured on video just after the shooting that supposedly support Wilson. I found this:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168...tail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

It doesn't exactly absolve Wilson, but it looks like it supports the Wilson friendly scenario a bit.

Overall, one of the worst things as far as the search for truth goes is that Wilson seems not to have made an official statement. This certainly allows the possibility that whatever Wilson says will be carefully crafted to fit within the available evidence. I don't think this should be allowed, but I also think it is standard procedure for all American police departments. I think there were some court decisions that make it so that a police officer can assert his right against self incrimination without being forced to resign from his job. I think that is bad policy but what I think about that is obviously not of much significance. That is just the way it is and the fact that Wilson is allowed to craft a story after he is made aware of the evidence against him isn't unusual for police.

 

[newyorkguy]

From the court document that was linked:

The same morning, after the incident, Officer Beaird drew up four complaints alleging that Mr. Davis committed Property Damage by transferring his blood to the uniforms of Officers Beaird, White, Tihen, and Pillarick....As a result of plea negotiations, Driving While Intoxicated was reduced to Careless and Imprudent Driving, Failure to Drive in a Single Lane and No Proof of Insurance were reduced to non-moving violations, and the four counts of Destruction of City Property were reduced to two counts. In sum, Mr. Davis pled guilty to Careless and Imprudent Driving, Speeding, two non-moving violations, Failure to Obey a Police Officer, and two counts of Destruction of City Property. Officer Beaird’s complaints formed the sole basis for the Destruction of City Property charges.

So he was charged with DWI but was allowed to plead to Careless and Imprudent Driving. Why? Because he was such a good guy? There are other factors involved that suggest there is more here than meets the eye. More from the court document:

Officer Beaird arrested Mr. Davis on suspicion of driving while intoxicated. Mr. Davis did not complete a sobriety test.

I'm not sure what that means, Mr. Davis did not "complete" his sobriety test.

When Mr. Davis was returned to the jail, a booking photo was taken. The photo is a headshot and shows dried blood all over Mr. Davis’ face....When Mr. Davis was released from the jail on September 22, 2013, he went to the emergency room at SSM St. Joseph Health Center in St. Charles, Missouri. Records show that he complained of persistent headaches and associated symptoms and was diagnosed with a “Concussion with no Loss of Consciousness” and “Scalp Laceration.”

He was in custody for two days with an untreated concussion. I had also asked if, as police charged, Davis punched an officer, breaking the officer's nose, was he charged? He was charged. A year later.

[Following the arrest] Officer White complained that a prisoner had punched him in the face. After a CT scan, Officer White was diagnosed with a Nasal Fracture (broken nose)...Nearly a year after the incident, on or around August 30, 2010, Officer Beaird applied for felony warrants against Mr. Davis, resulting in a state case against him for Assault on a Law Enforcement Officer. State of Missouri v. Henry M. Davis, Case No. 10SL-CR07793-01. The case was ultimately dropped.

My faulty critical thinking skills notwithstanding, this case smells.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I thought I read that in the thread, that DOJ was looking at, among other things, the case involving the man --arrested by mistake -- who was charged with destroying government property after getting his blood on the uniforms of the Ferguson police who beat him. There were at least two other incidents mentioned in this thread.

This quote is from an MSNBC story although that's not where I saw the original comment. I'm not sure where it was.

I provided a link to the DOJ statement.

You provided some hearsay.

What you believe appears to be based mostly on what you want to believe.

 

[Cylinder]

Overall, one of the worst things as far as the search for truth goes is that Wilson seems not to have made an official statement.

That has not been established, has it?

That claim seems to have evolved from the claim that FPD didn't write an incident report referencing the shooting. A likely scenario is that SLCPD had jurisdiction (as is standard with small jurisdictions), created an incident report, took a narrative from Wilson close-in-time, waited 72-hours and did an interview with him. I've seen no claim specifically asserting Wilson had invoked -- just that the prosecutor has been in touch with his attorney but not Wilson and that he would be invited to appear in the grand jury investigation.

 

[davefoc]

That has not been established, has it?

That claim seems to have evolved from the claim that FPD didn't write an incident report referencing the shooting. A likely scenario is that SLCPD had jurisdiction (as is standard with small jurisdictions), created an incident report, took a narrative from Wilson close-in-time, waited 72-hours and did an interview with him. I've seen no claim specifically asserting Wilson had invoked -- just that the prosecutor has been in touch with his attorney but not Wilson and that he would be invited to appear in the grand jury investigation.

Fair enough. Like many things with regard to this, the public just doesn't know right now. I did infer from the incident report that wasn't filled out and that there hasn't been an official press release that refers to a formal statement by Wilson that there hasn't been one. If he made one, good on him. I doubt that he could have been coerced to make one by threatening him with termination if he didn't make a formal statement. If he didn't make one we also don't know whether he was allowed to review available evidence before he made his statement.