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Michael Brown Shooting

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Axiom_Blade said:
One point somebody brought up was that if an African-American man had shot somebody down in the street like this, they would be in jail right now, not chilling at home like Wilson is. Is this not correct?
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I dunno. If it was a black cop that shot a white guy? It doesn't sound too improbable that the black cop would not be in jail.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Okay, "charged", not "convicted". My mistake.

One point somebody brought up was that if an African-American man had shot somebody down in the street like this, they would be in jail right now, not chilling at home like Wilson is. Is this not correct?



Perhaps so. Do you think that robbing a convenience store is a valid reason to gun somebody down in the street? ?
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Depends on the circumstances. If the robber had a gun, yes.

Which is not the case here.But you were speaking in general terms.

BTW do you admit that Brown did rob the store usins strongarm methods or are you still a believer in St Michael The Gentle Giant?
 
Brainster said:
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Certainly the robbery itself is not sufficient reason to gun down Brown. But it may be indicative of Brown's state of mind. One of the claims made by Wilson's supporters is that Brown came back at him. We can see in the video that Brown did in fact do just that to the store clerk who confronted him at the door. I'm not saying that would be allowed in a courtroom (I don't know) but it's certainly worth considering on a forum.
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Exactly, obviously the robbery is a relevant part of this incident. The problem is that it isn't relevant if we know that Wilson shot Brown while Brown was obviously attempting to surrender. The timing of the release of the video when the most prevalent narrative by far was that Wilson had shot Brown while Brown had his hands in the air made it look like the police were making the point that Brown was a criminal and therefore it was OK to shoot him. I doubt that this was the point the police were trying to make but their incredible ineptitude with regard to the release of this information made it difficult to see what point they were trying to make if it wasn't that.

Axiom_Blade said:
Okay, "charged", not "convicted". My mistake.

One point somebody brought up was that if an African-American man had shot somebody down in the street like this, they would be in jail right now, not chilling at home like Wilson is. Is this not correct?
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I've wondered about that as well. Overall, a fair number of black police officers do shoot white people and I don't recall people making a big deal out of it. It was probably very different a long time ago, but today I think it goes largely unnoticed. Suppose the facts are exactly as they are in this case but one of the three black officers on the Ferguson police force had shot a white suspect under these circumstances. I think the event would have gone largely unnoticed. I don't think there would have been some big backlash against the black police officer in Ferguson. Pick another community where the racial mix was mostly white and a suspect was killed by a black police officer. I suppose it depends on where you live, but my thought is if that happened in Fullerton where I live the incident would not have caused any particular disruption in the community.

Probably the facts that make this situation different than most police shootings is:
1. Racial profile of the community very different from that of its police force.
2. Community seems to have some well deserved resentment towards the police department in general.
3. The narrative that was told initially about the crime was incendiary and even now facts have not been made available to the public which can disprove the initial narrative.
4. The police department has handled almost every public aspect of this incident particularly poorly.

Perhaps so. Do you think that robbing a convenience store is a valid reason to gun somebody down in the street? Or only if they are a "large black man, acting in a threatening manner"?
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I don't think this comment deserves a response but I'll make one. It's a stupid comment. Nobody in this thread has said anything remotely like he was a criminal so he should have been shot. As to the large black man thing. the fact that he was large and young is of course relevant. If you have a gun and the other guy doesn't and the other guy is clearly physically superior to you, you have fractions of a second to kill him or he will be upon you and likely overcome you, take your gun and kill you.

And to be clear I don't think we know that shooting Brown was appropriate but I think we should wait until information is available that can be used to support a judgment about that.
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Okay, "charged", not "convicted". My mistake.

One point somebody brought up was that if an African-American man had shot somebody down in the street like this, they would be in jail right now, not chilling at home like Wilson is. Is this not correct?
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Actually, Wilson is not chilling at home; he is in hiding for fear of his life. But as to your question: Is there a specific example you can cite recently of this happening? I presume you're talking about an African-American cop, not just an ordinary citizen?

Perhaps so. Do you think that robbing a convenience store is a valid reason to gun somebody down in the street? Or only if they are a "large black man, acting in a threatening manner"?
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This is the strawman that people keep putting forward; that if somebody believes the shooting was justified, they must believe that execution for c-store robbery is also justified.
 
davefoc said:
Exactly, obviously the robbery is a relevant part of this incident. The problem is that it isn't relevant if we know that Wilson shot Brown while Brown was obviously attempting to surrender. The timing of the release of the video when the most prevalent narrative by far was that Wilson had shot Brown while Brown had his hands in the air made it look like the police were making the point that Brown was a criminal and therefore it was OK to shoot him. I doubt that this was the point the police were trying to make but their incredible ineptitude with regard to the release of this information made it difficult to see what point they were trying to make if it wasn't that.
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That they'd made a mistake in not officially releasing it earlier? I noted this a couple days back, it's one of the very interesting things from right as the story broke that hasn't gotten much attention.

Watch this video and consider the following:

That was posted to Youtube on August 10th, a day after the shooting. Consider what this man knows which wouldn't become known until several days later:

1. That Michael Brown had stolen the Cigarillos.

2. That it was the Ferguson Market and not the Quik Trip.

3. That the Ferguson Market had not called police.

4. That Dorian Johnson had put the box back on the counter after Mike Brown handed them to him. What detail!

5. That someone had said Mike Brown was running from the police.

6. He knows that the police had passed up Dorian Johnson and Mike Brown and uses the same phrase 'almost to our destination' as Johnson would tell media two days later when he surfaced on MSNBC.

Odds are he knows Dorian Johnson and talked to him, if not witnessed the whole thing, (possibly in the Ferguson Market vid?) yet tells a story about an execution style killing. Who is this guy? Why did it take so long for the rest of the information to come out through the police or press?
 
Kaosium said:
That they'd made a mistake in not officially releasing it earlier? I noted this a couple days back, it's one of the very interesting things from right as the story broke that hasn't gotten much attention.

Watch this video and consider the following:

That was posted to Youtube on August 10th, a day after the shooting. Consider what this man knows which wouldn't become known until several days later:

1. That Michael Brown had stolen the Cigarillos.

2. That it was the Ferguson Market and not the Quik Trip.

3. That the Ferguson Market had not called police.

4. That Dorian Johnson had put the box back on the counter after Mike Brown handed them to him. What detail!

5. That someone had said Mike Brown was running from the police.

6. He knows that the police had passed up Dorian Johnson and Mike Brown and uses the same phrase 'almost to our destination' as Johnson would tell media two days later when he surfaced on MSNBC.

Odds are he knows Dorian Johnson and talked to him, if not witnessed the whole thing, (possibly in the Ferguson Market vid?) yet tells a story about an execution style killing. Who is this guy? Why did it take so long for the rest of the information to come out through the police or press?
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He clearly knows some details early, but, he also says that the first shot was to the head, and then the officer walked up and put "four more in him". Brown was laying face down in the street, how did Wilson manage to put four more slugs in him, from the front, at that point? So there are other important details that he doesn't have correct as well.
 
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Kaosium said:
That they'd made a mistake in not officially releasing it earlier? I noted this a couple days back, it's one of the very interesting things from right as the story broke that hasn't gotten much attention.

Watch this video and consider the following:

That was posted to Youtube on August 10th, a day after the shooting. Consider what this man knows which wouldn't become known until several days later:

1. That Michael Brown had stolen the Cigarillos.

2. That it was the Ferguson Market and not the Quik Trip.

3. That the Ferguson Market had not called police.

4. That Dorian Johnson had put the box back on the counter after Mike Brown handed them to him. What detail!

5. That someone had said Mike Brown was running from the police.

6. He knows that the police had passed up Dorian Johnson and Mike Brown and uses the same phrase 'almost to our destination' as Johnson would tell media two days later when he surfaced on MSNBC.

Odds are he knows Dorian Johnson and talked to him, if not witnessed the whole thing, (possibly in the Ferguson Market vid?) yet tells a story about an execution style killing. Who is this guy? Why did it take so long for the rest of the information to come out through the police or press?
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I can't watch with audio right now, but I can confirm that YouTube's auto-captions are of no help. ("I hope my brother on da la Madelein Google arms marque hoffman et al").
 
Lerxst said:
But why do some people claim its not relevant and that it's somehow a justification for shooting Brown? Both are clearly not true.
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I've pretty much been in this thread from the beginning; at least I read through what had transpired before I joined, and I don't recall anyone claiming the convenience store incident was justification for shooting Brown..

Since you are making that assertion, it would be up to you to show that someone has made that claim...
 
As to Officer Wilson's injury, what shows at the scene is all depentent on the inflammatory response and how quickly it manifests. With my son hit on the nose with a baseball, his nose was a bit swollen when I got there 15 minutes after the fact. He didn't develop bruising till the next day. Several posters have offered their own experiences with varying injuries.
My son's ED x-rays led to a diagnosis of a fracture. At the follow up with an ENT Dr. I was told it may not be broken and the x-ray just showed the normal articulation between them.
To have a self described health care professional make multiple absolute declarations on how a wound is fake based on crappy video immediately after the incident is disturbing in the least. Very reminiscent of absolute declarations about G. Zimmerman's injuries.
Here is a wiki quip about inflammation:
Acute inflammation is a short-term process, usually appearing within a few minutes or hours and ceasing upon the removal of the injurious stimulus.[5] It is characterized by five cardinal signs:[6]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation
 
Mike! said:
He clearly knows some details early, but, he also says that the first shot was to the head, and then the officer walked up and put "four more in him". Brown was laying face down in the street, how did Wilson manage to put four more slugs in him, from the front, at that point? So there are other important details that he doesn't have correct as well.
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Yes, that's what's interesting. He obviously has (correct) inside information that no one else knew at the time and wouldn't become public until (the first of it) two days later when Dorian Johnson surfaces....yet he tells a story (regarding the shooting) obviously in contrast to what the physical evidence shows.

I find that interesting.
 
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Wolrab said:
As to Officer Wilson's injury, what shows at the scene is all depentent on the inflammatory response and how quickly it manifests. With my son hit on the nose with a baseball, his nose was a bit swollen when I got there 15 minutes after the fact. He didn't develop bruising till the next day. Several posters have offered their own experiences with varying injuries.
My son's ED x-rays led to a diagnosis of a fracture. At the follow up with an ENT Dr. I was told it may not be broken and the x-ray just showed the normal articulation between them.
To have a self described health care professional make multiple absolute declarations on how a wound is fake based on crappy video immediately after the incident is disturbing in the least. Very reminiscent of absolute declarations about G. Zimmerman's injuries.
Here is a wiki quip about inflammation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammation
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I will merely note that it happens with frequency.
 
What exactly were the EMTs going to do with a corpse? Do CPR and watch whatever blood was left squirt out the wounds?
 
Upchurch said:
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I don't discount them, but I see no reason, at this stage, to give one more credence than the rest. Eye witness testimony is notoriously prone to error, whatever the situation and they contradict each other on important details.
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Except for the fact all the eye witnesses we have heard from are identified and have public statements from the first day. All the supposed stories supporting Wilson's version including all we know about Wilson's version come from friends of friends, unsourced claims, and right wing blogs.

There's a big deal made of an informal conversation caught on a video that a right wing blogger has claimed supports the claim Brown was coming at Wilson. But the words do not say attacking, running at, nothing like that, just that Brown was coming toward Wilson when Brown was shot. We know that from where the bullets struck.

So do tell, which eye witness reports are inconsistent with Brown giving up when he was shot?
 
Unabogie said:
Wow, FPD released their "incident report" and it's, well, blank.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michael-brown-shooting-police-report

Not hyperbole, blank, but they provided zero details about an incident in which someone died, blank. In contrast, the incident report for Michael Brown's alleged robbery of the cigars is 18 pages long.
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Like the camera in the jail cell conveniently not working:

"Officer Wilson, don't worry, we'll wait to see what videos surface before you give your account and you'll have plenty of time to confabulate a story that fits the videos."​
 
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